Category: Europe, World Affairs Topics: Europe, Turkiye Views: 3959
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Turkey Will Test Europe
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One of the grandfathers of the European Union (EU) concept, Maximilien de Bethune, suggested that all Christian nations in Europe to gather under the roof of a federation called the Great Order. One central goal of the French statesman, also known as Duc de Sully, was to stop the Turkish advance in Europe. The founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, said that God was testing Christians with the Ottomans, characterizing the Turks as 'the wrath of heaven'.
The rapid advance of the Ottomans into Europe and its years of hegemony generated a serious crisis in Europe. The clothing, the habits, the cuisine of Turks became elements used in the formation of a European identity. We could say with the late Edward Said that the Ottoman Empire was the 'other' that the European looked to set itself in order. We could say that this judgment was valid at least until the second siege of Vienna.
We are now going through a new phase in which Europe looks at Turkey and defines itself. History this time is not repeating itself on the battlefield and at Vienna, now the struggle is on the negotiation table and at Brussels. Even though the historical roles have changed, the Turks will play a determining role in Europe's self-assessment with regard to world politics.
The kind of unity Europe will enjoy in the long-run will be seen in its answer to Turkey in December.
The Turkey discussions will force this question since its answer is capable of fundamentally shaping E.U. institutions.
The signs are that Turkey will be the trial of the E.U. After the Socialist victory in Spain, Poland started to signal that it would change its irreconcilable stance toward the Europe Constitution. In an E.U. after the Constitution crisis, which will be past by June at the latest, the bulky issue of Turkey will take up the entire discussion.
At that time, according to the statement of [E.U] Enlargement Commissioner Gnther Verheugen, Brussels will be face to face with the toughest and most important discussions in its history.
With its answer to Turkey, E.U. will decide if it is a Christian club, or a union of democracy, human rights, supremacy of the law, as it always proudly claims. It will decide how it will contribute to the West-Islamic World relations, which are becoming more strained after September 11 and March 11, and whether it wants to be a strategic power to on a level with the U.S. These are the questions that need to be taken up about the identity of Europe on an ontological level.
The announcements that German, Belgian, French and Danish rightist and racist parties are campaigning for the European Parliament elections in June on the platform that they will keep Turkey out of the E.U. indicate that Turks have a deep, long-term contribution to make to the Europe's own definition of its identity in accordance with their historical role in Europe since the times of the Ottomans. The important thing is to participate in this campaign in a prepared and calm fashion.
Source: Zaman Daily
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Older Comments:
MUSTAFA FROM TURKEY said:
Question for mustafa who is indifferent - Why doesn't Turkey help to create a standard currency throughout Northern Africa and the Middle East and be the leader of such a move instead of retreating to an easy way out?
Answer;Because we had that relationship for 600 years as ottoman empire.At the end our soldiers got hit&killed from behind in first world war by "so called brother's"...Those countries in middle east acted with Italian, France, and UK.
"Same palestinian Brothers sold their own piece of land to the Israel? ...& get the money.." is silly and a total lie.
It is not a lie, it is the reality..At that time those people thought that these Jews can not do so much on that kind of small piece of Land. (Which was a mistake)..Anyways isn't it awkward to call turks for help against Jews?Those are The Turks that U call "Brother to palestenians, which those palestenians killed the Gragndfather's of today Turkish people? In world war 1"
I do not expect EU to vote "yes" for Turkey.But If they vote "yes" to Turkey it will be for their benefits.
Answer;Because we had that relationship for 600 years as ottoman empire.At the end our soldiers got hit&killed from behind in first world war by "so called brother's"...Those countries in middle east acted with Italian, France, and UK.
"Same palestinian Brothers sold their own piece of land to the Israel? ...& get the money.." is silly and a total lie.
It is not a lie, it is the reality..At that time those people thought that these Jews can not do so much on that kind of small piece of Land. (Which was a mistake)..Anyways isn't it awkward to call turks for help against Jews?Those are The Turks that U call "Brother to palestenians, which those palestenians killed the Gragndfather's of today Turkish people? In world war 1"
I do not expect EU to vote "yes" for Turkey.But If they vote "yes" to Turkey it will be for their benefits.
2004-04-17
AKBAR KHAN FROM CANADA said:
For the "mustafa" who is indifferent with the yellow smiley, I must say that your statement,
"Same palestinian Brothers sold their own piece of land to the Israel? ...& get the money.." is silly and a total lie. Palestine was under a british mandate when their lands were confiscated and 700,000 Palestinians were displaced to make room for Jews fleeing from persecution in Europe. You also say:
"100 years ago same palestinian brothers killed the "brother-muslim-ottoman soldiers"...."
Why do you invent such things, when you should befocusing on what is going on right now? Why can not the Turkish government be criticized alongside the Saudi Royal Family, because they are not perfect and are deserving of much criticism. This is not a one way street if that is how you think of it, but Muslim leaders in the Middle East are generally all tyrants...they need to be smacked around for their stupidity against their Muslim populations.
Question for mustafa who is indifferent - Why doesn't Turkey help to create a standard currency throughout Northern Africa and the Middle East and be the leader of such a move instead of retreating to an easy way out? They obviously want to take advantage of trade and currency opportunities if they can join the European Union. How about the old saying "charity starts at home?" Turkey is not moving anytime soon, don't you think it's time for the Turkey to build its relationships wit Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and vice-a-versa? Insha'Allah.
Just watching Hosni Mubarak stand there next to Bushit in Texas, makes me wonder how much more foreign aid (bribe money) he wants from the United States. All these jokers are running around talking about withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, but are only puffing around a lot of hot air and really doing nothing, because the attention from Iraq needs to be diverted at this time, since approval rating in the USA for the war has hit a low of 42%, and these polls are conducted by the ZNN.
"Same palestinian Brothers sold their own piece of land to the Israel? ...& get the money.." is silly and a total lie. Palestine was under a british mandate when their lands were confiscated and 700,000 Palestinians were displaced to make room for Jews fleeing from persecution in Europe. You also say:
"100 years ago same palestinian brothers killed the "brother-muslim-ottoman soldiers"...."
Why do you invent such things, when you should befocusing on what is going on right now? Why can not the Turkish government be criticized alongside the Saudi Royal Family, because they are not perfect and are deserving of much criticism. This is not a one way street if that is how you think of it, but Muslim leaders in the Middle East are generally all tyrants...they need to be smacked around for their stupidity against their Muslim populations.
Question for mustafa who is indifferent - Why doesn't Turkey help to create a standard currency throughout Northern Africa and the Middle East and be the leader of such a move instead of retreating to an easy way out? They obviously want to take advantage of trade and currency opportunities if they can join the European Union. How about the old saying "charity starts at home?" Turkey is not moving anytime soon, don't you think it's time for the Turkey to build its relationships wit Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and vice-a-versa? Insha'Allah.
Just watching Hosni Mubarak stand there next to Bushit in Texas, makes me wonder how much more foreign aid (bribe money) he wants from the United States. All these jokers are running around talking about withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, but are only puffing around a lot of hot air and really doing nothing, because the attention from Iraq needs to be diverted at this time, since approval rating in the USA for the war has hit a low of 42%, and these polls are conducted by the ZNN.
2004-04-13
MUSTAFA FROM TURKEY said:
There are two Mustafas who wrote comments on this article. The "agreeing", green-faced Mustafa is always the same person, being myself! And the neutral Mustafa is another single person, I think.
Dear Mustafa, the so-called Arab revolt of the previous century is pure fiction. It was just a small-scale revolt and most Arabs remained loyal to the Ottoman caliphate. If you read truly historical books, you will see that that trivial revolt is grossly exaggerated by our secular State.
As for your ancestor who was killed by Arabs, my grandfather who was the imam of his village was killed by other Turks in 1921 or 1922 just because he insisted on observing the laws of the Quran. Should I hate other Turks now? Of course, I must NOT. So your attitude towards Arabs is wrong.
Dear Mustafa, the so-called Arab revolt of the previous century is pure fiction. It was just a small-scale revolt and most Arabs remained loyal to the Ottoman caliphate. If you read truly historical books, you will see that that trivial revolt is grossly exaggerated by our secular State.
As for your ancestor who was killed by Arabs, my grandfather who was the imam of his village was killed by other Turks in 1921 or 1922 just because he insisted on observing the laws of the Quran. Should I hate other Turks now? Of course, I must NOT. So your attitude towards Arabs is wrong.
2004-04-12
AKBAR KHAN FROM CANADA said:
Salaam br. Mustafa,
I just wanted to state that the government of Turkey is not Islamic, and if it is going to join the European Union, and at the same time control it's Khurdish population bordering Iraq, how will it influence Europe about Islam, when Muslims are the second largest religious denomination in France (10 mil. roughly), and huge in Germany as well, yet they are being denied their rights to wear hijab or for men to have "religiously associated beards?" I am just simply asking you how Turkey's joining to the EU will bring Islam to Europe? The people of Turkey as having problems in have Islamic dress, ettiquette, and many other related issues within Turkey itself already. My point being is that Turkey needs to realize it's great history and how it can regain it's leadership among the Muslim Ummah.
Jews were offered to go to England, why didn't they go there? There are lots of points in history and if you study them as well, you will see that the Jews had offers from all over the place, not just Turkey. There were Jews living all over the Middle East already before they were being driven out of Germany, and the Jews who are still in the MIddle East, back then lived in harmony with Muslims. It is quite the contrary that the Ottoman Khalifa should Abdul Hamid should take a 6 million dollar bait and allow the Jews in when they could have gone to numerous other places.
As you can see, I referred to current times in saying htat the leadership of Turkey is betraying it's Palestinian brothers and sisters, by brokering trade deals with the very government which oppresses the Palestinians. Egyptian leadership is just as guilty.
I don't know how many tiems I can say it but I will enver stop...charity starts at home, provide for your own family first so that you are strong enough to help others. If we cannot do that, then we are obviously doing something which is in the wrong...our priorities are wrong..
I just wanted to state that the government of Turkey is not Islamic, and if it is going to join the European Union, and at the same time control it's Khurdish population bordering Iraq, how will it influence Europe about Islam, when Muslims are the second largest religious denomination in France (10 mil. roughly), and huge in Germany as well, yet they are being denied their rights to wear hijab or for men to have "religiously associated beards?" I am just simply asking you how Turkey's joining to the EU will bring Islam to Europe? The people of Turkey as having problems in have Islamic dress, ettiquette, and many other related issues within Turkey itself already. My point being is that Turkey needs to realize it's great history and how it can regain it's leadership among the Muslim Ummah.
Jews were offered to go to England, why didn't they go there? There are lots of points in history and if you study them as well, you will see that the Jews had offers from all over the place, not just Turkey. There were Jews living all over the Middle East already before they were being driven out of Germany, and the Jews who are still in the MIddle East, back then lived in harmony with Muslims. It is quite the contrary that the Ottoman Khalifa should Abdul Hamid should take a 6 million dollar bait and allow the Jews in when they could have gone to numerous other places.
As you can see, I referred to current times in saying htat the leadership of Turkey is betraying it's Palestinian brothers and sisters, by brokering trade deals with the very government which oppresses the Palestinians. Egyptian leadership is just as guilty.
I don't know how many tiems I can say it but I will enver stop...charity starts at home, provide for your own family first so that you are strong enough to help others. If we cannot do that, then we are obviously doing something which is in the wrong...our priorities are wrong..
2004-04-12
JOHANNES FROM STANKONIA said:
First things first, the EU isnt this bastion of humanitarian enlightenment as the author makes it out to be. Whats particularly disturbing is that most Turks want to join this nonbeliever union, not for monetary issues, nor reasons for economic and social convenience, but rather to distance themselves from what it is to be Muslim, and to quite literally - join the enemy. The EU is the but the latest of international Christian cabals making temporary alliances to destroy Islamic states. They quite clearly wont list that in their charter, but taking a chapter from the history of Christianity, any student of history can make the conclusion.
The Turks should focus their intent on making stronger alliances with advanced Muslim states like Malaysia, and making military alliances with Muslim states from the depths of Africa, to the former Soviet occupied Muslim countries. The EU like its predecessors will fade away into obscurity once they'res a real war. Alliances made for the purpose of strenghtening the Ummah and for Allah (swt) will never break.
The Turks should focus their intent on making stronger alliances with advanced Muslim states like Malaysia, and making military alliances with Muslim states from the depths of Africa, to the former Soviet occupied Muslim countries. The EU like its predecessors will fade away into obscurity once they'res a real war. Alliances made for the purpose of strenghtening the Ummah and for Allah (swt) will never break.
2004-04-12
MUSTAFA FROM TURKEY said:
Who said The government in Turkey is so islamic?
Who said Turkey "If Turkey's government is so Islamic Mustafa, why have they betrayed their Palestinian brothers and sisters "
These are not true points.
You must read the history and learn that;
-100 years ago same palestinian brothers killed the "brother-muslim-ottoman soldiers"....
-I have one grandgrandfather & his brother killed in syria.(tehy were soldiers of ottoman empire)
-Same palestinian Brothers sold their own piece of land to the Israel? ...& get the money..
-The Last Ottoman empire, the khelife Sultan abdulhamit has refused to sell the piece of land to jews? Although the ottoman empire was about to collapse, he refused jews offer of 6 million dollars??.....
These are the historic realities, be aware of them..OK?
Who said Turkey "If Turkey's government is so Islamic Mustafa, why have they betrayed their Palestinian brothers and sisters "
These are not true points.
You must read the history and learn that;
-100 years ago same palestinian brothers killed the "brother-muslim-ottoman soldiers"....
-I have one grandgrandfather & his brother killed in syria.(tehy were soldiers of ottoman empire)
-Same palestinian Brothers sold their own piece of land to the Israel? ...& get the money..
-The Last Ottoman empire, the khelife Sultan abdulhamit has refused to sell the piece of land to jews? Although the ottoman empire was about to collapse, he refused jews offer of 6 million dollars??.....
These are the historic realities, be aware of them..OK?
2004-04-11
YAKUB FROM US said:
As Salaam Wa-Alaykum,
The article was good enough, but a rather wordsome and indirect way to state the well-known fact that the French government is Islamophobic.
As far as the comments are concerned, no one has yet mentioned that the majority (by far) of politically motivated murders and displacements of Kurds is at the hands of the PKK (a communitst/atheist Kurdish seperatist group that has even gone so far as hunting down and murdering Turks and Kurds in Europe).
Not only that, but reform of laws restricting speech (outside of the Kurdish language, which has been officially recognized at this point) and full enfranchisement of citizens formerly convited of breaking those laws is happening almost daily. In fact, sitting PM Erdogan (whose administration is deeply concerned with restoring the position of Islam in Turkish society) once spent a year in prison for reading a poem at a public gathering that was deemed "subversive".
For anyone who wants to focus on the reforms that need to take place and ignore the monumental progress that has already occured in Turkey, I suppose that is your right. However, I can only assume that you are not from nor have you ever lived in a Muslim majority country. Otherwise you would realize that almost all of "our countries" are dictatorships with draconian legal codes, and the possiblity of reform (outside of violent insurrection) is slim to none.
I suppose it is easy to criticize moderate Turkey if you are a secularist on the grounds that they are "not free enough" or conversely, if you are a fundamentalist, because the Turks are "too free". No one at all seems concerned that we as Muslims are supposed to be the middle community as described by the Mercy to Mankind, our beloved Prophet Muhammad (SAWS). Insh'Allah ta'Ala we will see Turkey continue on the road it is now following, and maybe with time it will be, once more, a "Muslim superpower".
Wa-Salaam my beloved brothers and sisters
The article was good enough, but a rather wordsome and indirect way to state the well-known fact that the French government is Islamophobic.
As far as the comments are concerned, no one has yet mentioned that the majority (by far) of politically motivated murders and displacements of Kurds is at the hands of the PKK (a communitst/atheist Kurdish seperatist group that has even gone so far as hunting down and murdering Turks and Kurds in Europe).
Not only that, but reform of laws restricting speech (outside of the Kurdish language, which has been officially recognized at this point) and full enfranchisement of citizens formerly convited of breaking those laws is happening almost daily. In fact, sitting PM Erdogan (whose administration is deeply concerned with restoring the position of Islam in Turkish society) once spent a year in prison for reading a poem at a public gathering that was deemed "subversive".
For anyone who wants to focus on the reforms that need to take place and ignore the monumental progress that has already occured in Turkey, I suppose that is your right. However, I can only assume that you are not from nor have you ever lived in a Muslim majority country. Otherwise you would realize that almost all of "our countries" are dictatorships with draconian legal codes, and the possiblity of reform (outside of violent insurrection) is slim to none.
I suppose it is easy to criticize moderate Turkey if you are a secularist on the grounds that they are "not free enough" or conversely, if you are a fundamentalist, because the Turks are "too free". No one at all seems concerned that we as Muslims are supposed to be the middle community as described by the Mercy to Mankind, our beloved Prophet Muhammad (SAWS). Insh'Allah ta'Ala we will see Turkey continue on the road it is now following, and maybe with time it will be, once more, a "Muslim superpower".
Wa-Salaam my beloved brothers and sisters
2004-04-11
NICK CAMERON FROM UNITED STATES OF AMERICA said:
Akbar Khan brings up a very important point about Kurdish sympathy for America. So if the Kurds want a permanent U.S. presence on their territories because they fear the Arabs to the south of their lands and the Turks to their north, wouldn't genuine democracy require others to let the Kurds have their way?
Perhaps America has gone about this all wrong, as Akbar seems to believe. It could very well be that only a Kurdish republic will protect the rights of the rights of the Kurds. If so, then America should let the rest of Iraq be and let the Kurds have their own way.
Just a thought...
Perhaps America has gone about this all wrong, as Akbar seems to believe. It could very well be that only a Kurdish republic will protect the rights of the rights of the Kurds. If so, then America should let the rest of Iraq be and let the Kurds have their own way.
Just a thought...
2004-04-11
NICK CAMERON FROM UNITED STATES OF AMERICA said:
Hudd D'Alhamd seems to be ignorant about the Moros in the Philippines. First of all, there is no evidence that the majority of Moros even want to leave the Philippines. Second, even if they did, then where would their land be? There are few areas of the Philippines where the Moros hold a clear majority, and trying to create an coniguous independent state would be an incredible challenge since these areas are mere islands surrounded by Christian communities. Even Mindanao, their supposed "homeland" is a mostly Christian non-Moro region.
Of course, the Moros always have the option of migrating to Malaysia if they so choose.
So getting back to the Kurds, they have been governing themselves for years now. Why not let them have power over their own affairs, even if it's through a federation?
Of course, the Moros always have the option of migrating to Malaysia if they so choose.
So getting back to the Kurds, they have been governing themselves for years now. Why not let them have power over their own affairs, even if it's through a federation?
2004-04-11
MUSTAFA FROM TURKEY said:
I'll just make a clarification for Akbar Han and others who may have understandably misunderstood my comments about the new Turkish government. I was talking about the newly elected AK Party government and not the secular establishment which is also called 'the secular government' by people. Of course the secular establishment seems to hold more power than the largely religious-origined AK Party members. But some people within AK Party are trying to do some good job, I believe.
2004-04-11
AKBAR KHAN FROM CANADA said:
If Turkey's government is so Islamic Mustafa, why have they betrayed their Palestinian brothers and sisters and made a deal with Ariel Sharon, to provide Israel with vast amounts of fresh water for Israeli's, in exchange for Israeli weaponry?
Great democracy...charity starts at home Turkey. It is sad to see the remnants of the Ottoman Khilafate desperately wanting to be sucked up into the very continent that attacked it and disassembled it.
Great democracy...charity starts at home Turkey. It is sad to see the remnants of the Ottoman Khilafate desperately wanting to be sucked up into the very continent that attacked it and disassembled it.
2004-04-10
AKBAR KHAN FROM CANADA said:
All those polls posted by the artist formerly known as Nick, and anyone else who claims that there is security and law and order more so now than when Saddam was in power, are basically polls which were conducted ONLY in Kurdish inhabited areas of Iraq which means the Northern region of Iraq, and not among the rest of the 23 million Iraqi's.
Do not let the artist formerly known as Nick fool you into thinking that the CPA is doing it's job right - they do not belong there BOTTOM LINE.
May Allah (swa) protect and strengthen Moqtada Sadr and his supporters.
Do not let the artist formerly known as Nick fool you into thinking that the CPA is doing it's job right - they do not belong there BOTTOM LINE.
May Allah (swa) protect and strengthen Moqtada Sadr and his supporters.
2004-04-10
SHUJA FROM TORONTO, CANADA said:
Some people are so confused that they cannot see the appropriate analogy. You don't need rocket technology to understand what I have been saying. Here are some deliberations:
1) It does not matter whether Turkey or other European countries improve their human rights record for the issue we are talking;
2) It is irrelvant for the Turkish entry to EU based upon how it is treating its citizens or Hijab sisters;
3) If that is so, then how come more modern and more secular, more Christian looking Bosnian Muslims were murdered in day light; They were not breaking any human rights agenda! Were they! Their identity by their names alone is enough for the treatment.
4) We should condemn the Turkish authorities of their treatment of Kurds and their insensitivies toward the Hijab of sisters; However, it has no relevance, I repeat no relevance for their entry into EU; France and other countries have made it an issue to block the Turkish entry; The former French Prime Minister has himself taken the oath that France will never allow a Muslim country to enter into the realm of Chrisitan countries! Never.
5) Turkish will be allowed to enter into EU as soon as their populace renounce Islam as a whole and either convert to Christianity or Aethesim officially.
6) By the way, we don't need Turkish or Kurdish friends to focus the issue into its right perspective.
We also tend to confuse ourselves between the issues and that is the hall mark of Muslims.
Shuja
1) It does not matter whether Turkey or other European countries improve their human rights record for the issue we are talking;
2) It is irrelvant for the Turkish entry to EU based upon how it is treating its citizens or Hijab sisters;
3) If that is so, then how come more modern and more secular, more Christian looking Bosnian Muslims were murdered in day light; They were not breaking any human rights agenda! Were they! Their identity by their names alone is enough for the treatment.
4) We should condemn the Turkish authorities of their treatment of Kurds and their insensitivies toward the Hijab of sisters; However, it has no relevance, I repeat no relevance for their entry into EU; France and other countries have made it an issue to block the Turkish entry; The former French Prime Minister has himself taken the oath that France will never allow a Muslim country to enter into the realm of Chrisitan countries! Never.
5) Turkish will be allowed to enter into EU as soon as their populace renounce Islam as a whole and either convert to Christianity or Aethesim officially.
6) By the way, we don't need Turkish or Kurdish friends to focus the issue into its right perspective.
We also tend to confuse ourselves between the issues and that is the hall mark of Muslims.
Shuja
2004-04-10
HUDD D'ALHAMD FROM CANADA said:
NC. Ola perro, como estas? The time is overdue for the Philipines to grant independence to the oppressed Moros. Deal on that, slime, before finding fault with others. Further on I despise you.
2004-04-10
MUSTAFA FROM TURKEY said:
It should be added that Turkey's admission to the European Union will be very good for the minorities as well as pious Muslims who are really mistreated by the secular elite. The secular elite then will not be able to do what it likes to the Kurds and the pious Muslims, as Europe will perfectly be able to prevent them from doing any harm to these minority groups.
I also hope that Turkey's admission to the European Union will give more opportunitites to the pious Muslims of this country to explain the Islamic faith to Europeans as well as their own people (Turks and Kurds and others) in a much better way.
Of course, a global Islamic unity is our ultimate aim, but you know what...
I also hope that Turkey's admission to the European Union will give more opportunitites to the pious Muslims of this country to explain the Islamic faith to Europeans as well as their own people (Turks and Kurds and others) in a much better way.
Of course, a global Islamic unity is our ultimate aim, but you know what...
2004-04-10
NICK CAMERON FROM UNITED STATES OF AMERICA said:
The Kurds are indeed oppressed. So perhaps it's time for the Muslim world to support a "two-state solution" for Kurdistan in Iraq and/or Turkey?
2004-04-10
SUHAYB FROM CANADA said:
well, a few very amusing comments i must say :)
however i must remind someone, that Suez was 50yrs ago before the EU was created... also it's obvious that France has THE responsibility in Rwanda, however it's not happening in France, whereas it IS happening in Turkey! whatever you say...also Turkey has a "muslim" government that forbids women to wear Hijab at work and in school(just for the religious remarks). also the old "i have a Kurdish friend" argument is not very convincing, i have Turkish friends, nice and educated that still believe Abdullah Ocalan ate children!!! where did they hear that other than on public Turkish media...however i had added an alternative view expressing the real reason for the delay in Turkey s admission to the EU(it will happen as soon as Turkey stops being down with the US). the fact that other countries act wrong isn't a reason for everyone to do it with no bad feeling. the EU has countries that oppress the ROMS (gypsy, but thats a bad word). EU isn't perfect and never will be but whatever people say i stay convinced that the Kurds are BADLY oppressed.
however i must remind someone, that Suez was 50yrs ago before the EU was created... also it's obvious that France has THE responsibility in Rwanda, however it's not happening in France, whereas it IS happening in Turkey! whatever you say...also Turkey has a "muslim" government that forbids women to wear Hijab at work and in school(just for the religious remarks). also the old "i have a Kurdish friend" argument is not very convincing, i have Turkish friends, nice and educated that still believe Abdullah Ocalan ate children!!! where did they hear that other than on public Turkish media...however i had added an alternative view expressing the real reason for the delay in Turkey s admission to the EU(it will happen as soon as Turkey stops being down with the US). the fact that other countries act wrong isn't a reason for everyone to do it with no bad feeling. the EU has countries that oppress the ROMS (gypsy, but thats a bad word). EU isn't perfect and never will be but whatever people say i stay convinced that the Kurds are BADLY oppressed.
2004-04-10
MUSTAFA FROM TURKEY said:
Who wants Turkey in EU?
Fanatic Christians? No?
Fanatic Muslims? No..(Because Turkey is the only country ruled by democracy in the world as being an islamic country)..Other muslim countries are Jelous of Turkey because of this, Turkey is an islamic country BUT Turkey is NOT ruled by islam!
Speaking of economy, EU countries are selling their products to Turkey with the lowest duty rates, Turkey is a good market for them, what difference would it make for EU members to have Turkey in EU?-NONE.
Speaking of ethnic groups that Turkey has within the borders..This point is a total nonesonce..Can U tell me a country that doesnt have etchnic groups in his country? There is None in the world..
It is the matter of economy first, then comes the religion factor, EU members dont like to be announced as Christian Club If they can..This is just the part of the Show to the audience..
So, Show must GO on..
Fanatic Christians? No?
Fanatic Muslims? No..(Because Turkey is the only country ruled by democracy in the world as being an islamic country)..Other muslim countries are Jelous of Turkey because of this, Turkey is an islamic country BUT Turkey is NOT ruled by islam!
Speaking of economy, EU countries are selling their products to Turkey with the lowest duty rates, Turkey is a good market for them, what difference would it make for EU members to have Turkey in EU?-NONE.
Speaking of ethnic groups that Turkey has within the borders..This point is a total nonesonce..Can U tell me a country that doesnt have etchnic groups in his country? There is None in the world..
It is the matter of economy first, then comes the religion factor, EU members dont like to be announced as Christian Club If they can..This is just the part of the Show to the audience..
So, Show must GO on..
2004-04-10
SELIM FROM UK said:
TR does not need the EU at all; It has a huge amount of resources available to succeed on his own. It would be smart for TR not to invest too much into military installions and religious facilities but spend more in longer school years and job training to give its economy a kick. Known and criticised human rights issues are all results of poor education and economy. Europe still struggles with its world war II trauma, and unfortunately didn't learn much from that. Many countries like especially UK, FR, DE received the big helping US hand during and after the war, they should really know by now how to help. Anyway, EU is still a bunch of loosers, big disapointment!
2004-04-09
TONY S. FROM USA said:
Salamu Alaikum,
It will indeed be a test for all to see. Turkey will eventually join the European club whether we like it or not. It is only the dynamics of the new world order. When capitalism rules, the boundaries shrink exponentially and the sense of nationalism begins to cringe at the predominance of it. What can one do? In my opinion: nothing!
Mankind is moving toward a whole playing field of enlightenment and edification, so the old world order of wars between nations is disappearing because the latter are preoccupied with the notion of bettering their lives. As long as capitalism is healthy and serving the majority of the world population, nations will do their utmost to elude conflicts and benefit from the stability which it provides. Let me conclude that nations are coming to realize that differences based on ethnicity, religion, and other factors are nothing but things of the past, and if they clash over something, they feel the obligation to solve the impasse peacefully.
It will indeed be a test for all to see. Turkey will eventually join the European club whether we like it or not. It is only the dynamics of the new world order. When capitalism rules, the boundaries shrink exponentially and the sense of nationalism begins to cringe at the predominance of it. What can one do? In my opinion: nothing!
Mankind is moving toward a whole playing field of enlightenment and edification, so the old world order of wars between nations is disappearing because the latter are preoccupied with the notion of bettering their lives. As long as capitalism is healthy and serving the majority of the world population, nations will do their utmost to elude conflicts and benefit from the stability which it provides. Let me conclude that nations are coming to realize that differences based on ethnicity, religion, and other factors are nothing but things of the past, and if they clash over something, they feel the obligation to solve the impasse peacefully.
2004-04-09
MUSTAFA FROM TURKEY said:
Suhayb's comment on Turkey was a true disaster. First off, it's true that Turkey doesn't really treat Kurds as perfectly as it should. However, Kurds today speak their language very freely contrary to the slanders of Suhayb. There are abundantly many Kurdish books around. Kurdish language has recently been allowed to be taught in private language courses as well. Personally I'm a Turk who doesn't understand a word of Kurdish but when my Kurdish friends speak Kurdish in my presence, I just deeply respect them and don't feel any offence. I hope and believe that the condition of Kurdish as a language will improve even further due to the assistance of the new Turkish government and mentality.
What about the agonies of the Muslim European Ottomans in the 19th century if you are so concerned with the sufferings of the Armenians who were unfortunately mistreated at the beginning of this century due to their collaboration with the Russian Empire against the Ottomans?
Personally I'm of European origin and my ancestors had been forced to flee from what is today called Bulgaria to today's North-Western Turkey by the Russians and Bulgarians through savage acts perpetrated against my Turkish-Muslim ancestors.
Before the 19th century Turks didn't know of the name 'Europe'. There were just the lands of non-Muslims but they didn't know the name Europe. When the European Turks first got to know it, they learned it from the Greek rebels who had just come to burn, pillage and massacre their villages. The rbels said 'You can't do anything against our atrocities because Europe has allowed us to do them'.
Please read 'Death and Exile' by the American historian Justin McCarthy for further info.
What about the agonies of the Muslim European Ottomans in the 19th century if you are so concerned with the sufferings of the Armenians who were unfortunately mistreated at the beginning of this century due to their collaboration with the Russian Empire against the Ottomans?
Personally I'm of European origin and my ancestors had been forced to flee from what is today called Bulgaria to today's North-Western Turkey by the Russians and Bulgarians through savage acts perpetrated against my Turkish-Muslim ancestors.
Before the 19th century Turks didn't know of the name 'Europe'. There were just the lands of non-Muslims but they didn't know the name Europe. When the European Turks first got to know it, they learned it from the Greek rebels who had just come to burn, pillage and massacre their villages. The rbels said 'You can't do anything against our atrocities because Europe has allowed us to do them'.
Please read 'Death and Exile' by the American historian Justin McCarthy for further info.
2004-04-09
SHUJA FROM TORONTO, CANADA said:
Suhayb: Your name indicates that you are a Muslim. However, I cannot believe that the people like you still exists in this world. With your stupid analogy, Britian and France should be kicked out of their role in attacking Suez Canal, brtualizing the 1991 Algerian elections by France, playing a key role in the Rwanda genocide by France, barbaric attack on Iraq by British. My friend, first of all why should Turkey join EU? No need for that. Turkey will not get the membership because it is a Muslim country. If we do not have the lungs to digest that then it is our problem. By the way, I don't support the Turkish actions againt Kurds, however, that is a totally different issue. Turkey should join and support Muslim countries rather than facing the humiliating rhetorics.
Shuja
Shuja
2004-04-09
SUHAYB FROM CANADA said:
Turkey has to work a lot to get in the EU. history is always very interesting but today is today and not yesterday...how is Turkey gonna get in the EU when a population of 15million Kurds is being oppressed, villages wiped off the map, oil robbed, thinkers jailed and people murdered on a regular basis by the turkish "armed forces"?!!! in a way that makes the serbs look nice!!! a man gets jailed 8yrs because he wrote in Kurdish...the only difference being V instead of W !!!! also there is a strong armenian community in western Europe and they didn't get over their genocide by the Turks not being recognised by the Turks 90yrs later...!
2004-04-09
DINO DEMARS FROM TURKEY said:
The Author writes:
"...E.U. will decide if it is a Christian club, or a union of democracy, human rights, supremacy of the law, as it always proudly claims"
If the EU is asking the questions above, then, a 'No' to Turkey ruling is the answer to both. If they're strictly a Christian club, then Turkey won't get in, and if they're about human rights, then Turkey has a long way to go before its compatible with European concepts of Human Rights.
Just ask the Kurds.
"...E.U. will decide if it is a Christian club, or a union of democracy, human rights, supremacy of the law, as it always proudly claims"
If the EU is asking the questions above, then, a 'No' to Turkey ruling is the answer to both. If they're strictly a Christian club, then Turkey won't get in, and if they're about human rights, then Turkey has a long way to go before its compatible with European concepts of Human Rights.
Just ask the Kurds.
2004-04-07
HUDD D'ALHAMD FROM CANADA said:
Test for Europe? Selcuk Gultasli you must be kidding me and all Muslims on this site. There is an old African saying:"I am the reason my ancestors ever existed." A very beautiful reason, I shall say, the present secular and anti-islamic government is just what Mehmet II had in mind when he brought down Constantinopole! What is this anyway? You proudly inform us about the depth of the cultural abyss Turkey sank to? Once the Ottoman Empire was the envy and fear of Europe. Kemal Ataturk was the instrument of Zionism, his mother being Jewish made him Jew under the rabinical law, dude! A Zionist Jew shaped the future of modern Turkey, for whose benifit, may I ask? There are 2 countries in the region that prohibit hijab in more than governmental institution alone: The mother of modern revolutionized democracy, France, and the rebirth of secular jahiliah, Turkey. That Europe has a test in accepting Turkey to the table? About time, ever since Ataturk brainwashed his people, Turkey found intricate ways of satisfying the Western powers on the detriment of their basicly Muslim population. You could say that Turkey as a country belly-danced for the Europeans for long enough now to be accepted in the bedroom. Of course they can eat like any servant after their masters. The scraps will be gathered for them on one plate. They will have the variety of course. Dignity? That died with Abdul Hamid II. There is no dignity in whoredom, only bad attitude and sexually transmited deseases. As for myself, I am not interested or faintly excited by Turkey's love affairs with Europe or US. When you see a country like Turkey able to prostitute her own mother for a miserable price, all that come in to my mind are certain passeges of the Holy Quran!!!
Peace out!
Peace out!
2004-04-07
