U.S. as a Vessel of God�s Goodness

For those interested in this discussion, I thought I might save time and effort by extracting from other dialogues passages that show my line of thinking -- and that lead to requests that I start a new discussion along these lines elsewhere!

 

Hi, all:

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Perception, Bush had to oust Saddam. Saddam had become the quasi-colonialist puppet of French, Russian, and German oil barons and arms merchants. 5,000 Iraqi children were dying every month of the UN sanctions as Saddam refused to spend money on basic needs like water and sewage facilities. Instead, he bribed UN officials and those aforementioned European governments, built palaces, bought arms. Saddam also had hundreds of thousands of other people murdered.

On sites like this, every Iraqi child's death was blamed on the U.S. It was convenient and easy to blame us. People of the Muslim world thought the U.S. controlled the U.N.

When the U.N. failed to take action against Saddam despite the pleading of the Bush administration, Bush proved that the U.S. does not control the U.N. The half-million or more Iraqi children who died died because Saddam and his Sunni cohorts' evil alliance with the French and other quasi-colonialists.

Today, the murders and brutality in Iraq ore the work of Muslims: covetous Ba'athist communists, spiteful Sunni and Shia rivals, murderous and shameless al Queda criminals, deluded Iranian special forces operatives.

My assertions above are not disputable if you know your facts.

In hopes of peace and understanding,

Astrophysicist

 

 Hi, Imam Ali:

Thank you for your kind note and suggestion.

I was simply responding to a perception that "Perception" had stated in this thread:

Iraq is but one of the places where innocent Muslims have been killed, tortured, sexually assaulted or humiliated. This has resulted in a lot of anti-American feelings, especially in the Middle East, and sadly, in some cases has resulted in violence against foreign workers (not troops) in places like Iraq, which is for sure not allowed by the Islamic teachings. The problem, as I see it, is that some members from both sides (ie. Muslim and non-Muslim) are unfortunately painting all the members of the other side with the same brush due to the actions of only a select group and most of the time this is because of ignorance. As you rightly said, many Americans want troops out of Iraq and 55 million Americans (49%) voted against Mr Bush at the American elections. This is why I was thanking you at the beginning of my post, because when human beings talk to each other we actually realize that all we really want (regardless of our race or beliefs) is peace to prevail in the world and not violence. Unfortunately many governments are corrupt and do not project the true kindness of their people to other nations.

So, it was Perception who opened Iraq to discussion here. It seemed to me that I should attempt to correct his widespread misperceptions. How could I let it stand when it is responsible for so much death and destruction? The "corrupt" governements were clearly Saddam's murderous regime and those that opposed his ouster -- France, Kofi Annan's UN, etc. Check out the truth of the "oil for food" scandal! Annan's memo shows he was in it up to his eyeballs! How else could this cruel travesty of justice be stopped but by Bush's military intervention?

I guess one point I could be making here is that, as a predominantly non-Muslim nation, America will will be hated by much of the Muslim world no matter what we do. Let Saddam stay, and we get blamed for all the deaths caused by the sanctions. Remove him, and we get accused of brutal imperialism.

I guess it ain't easy being a superhero . People will always try to find excuses and ways to try to bring you down .

Oh, well. You've just got to do what you believe is right and necessary and let things come out as they will.

 

No disrespect taken. I like it.

I know! A good friend of our family is an Imam. I read so many of you folks saying that we Americans are ignorant about Islam. Some people are, yes, but many of us are much better educated than you seem to think!

I get so sick of this "you are ignorant" and "you are horrible" kind of chatter that we read in some posts. We ALL have a lot to learn.

If you say so...

That is not true, Ali. Saddam got no help from the U.S. until he was well established as a military dictator (with a lot of help from the Soviet Union). In the 80s, Reagan sold him some anti-aircraft missles, but American weapon sales to him were only around 2% of his arsenal purchases for those years in question. His weapons and other financial support was mostly Russian: Ba'athist policy is a Muslim version of Communism. The U.S. sold this equipment so merely as a way of getting some diplomatic traction: Saddam could not get spare parts if the U.S. did not like what Saddam did with his military.

Saddam came to power as a Ba'athist assassin in the wake of the turmoil that seems endemic in that region in the absence of tyranny. After the Ottoman Empire was defeated by the English and Arab allies, and the Arab regions were free to establish governments, the French refused to honor their agreement to create a pan-Arab state and threw Faisal out of Damascus to the English. The English compensated Faisal by creating a state for him with Baghdad  as its capital. In the early 1930s, after about a decade, during which the British helped protect this new state from being taken over by the discontent remnants of the Ottoman power structure, Iraq became a free state. During the next few decades, internal Iraqi elements, including communist Ba'athists supported by the USSR, fought to wrest control from this government.

You cannot pin Saddam on the U.S., Ali. It is historically inaccurate and grossly unfair to do so. This is just the sort of thing that distracts people from the real causes and problems, and that's why nothing ever seems to get better over there.

Anti-American propaganda serves the nefarious purposes that I previously stated, and it has been very effective in parts of the world where there is no free press to give alternative views. And it has been fed by foolish leftests in the U.S. who believe that they need to undermine American policy and get people killed needlessly in order to regain control of the U.S. goverment

Peace!

Astro

 

In hopes of promoting understanding, let me bring the perspective of an American Christian to the table.

Most of us Americans do not hate the Qu'ran. Nor do we hate Muslims. I know personally many American Muslims, and some of them are my favorite people and closest friends.

They are Albanian Muslims. Their families were somewhat forcibly converted to Islam during the Turkish invasions of Europe some 500 years ago. (The first Islamic invasions of Europe came long before that, four hundred years before the "Crusades� that so many of you cite. Those first invasions reached the gates of Paris.) Before becoming Muslims, these Albanian families were among the oldest Christian societies in the world. They had been Christians some 1400 years. So, they bring the best of both traditions to the table. (But frankly, in my view, there in nothing good in Islam that does not already exist in Christianity, and -� in my view -- there are evils in Islam that do not exist in Christianity.)

As much as I love these Albanian Muslims, I cannot say that I hate the Arab al Queda sorts. In our Christian heritage, we are taught to "love our enemies as ourselves."  It is better to try to understand than to hate, is it not? I wish it were possible to talk rationally to the al Queda sort. I think they are ignorant and blind and pitiable.

The Qu'ran has many wonderful passages, but from my point of view, is not perfect. There are many ways to come to know God, whom you call Allah. Islam is one such path, but it seems to me to be the among the most dangerous, with many ways to fall into damnation. In brief, from the Christian point of view, Islam seems to have embedded in it a quasi-religious mandate and formula for imperialism based on Muhammad�s inherited tradition of the razzia.

But this is not a condemnation of Islam. There is much good in it, also, and if it works for you, that is wonderful. I wish only to tell you why it is not my choice as a guide to living a good and righteous life and why so many of us non-Muslims could never allow Islam to be forced upon us or our children.

First, let me ask that you please don't believe everything you have been told about us Americans. From what I have read in various posts, it appears that those of you who hate America -- or who think that we hate you -- know little about us. And much of what you think you "know" is just plain wrong. If you learn the whole of the history of the U.S., you will see a nation very conscious of itself that is learning and growing and correcting its mistakes and flaws.

In addition, many aspects of American history that you think you "know" have been taken out of context.

(Were you aware that during the 1930s, the Japanese, who believed themselves racially superior to the rest of the world, were murdering millions of Chinese, Korean, Manchurian, and other Asian civilians at gunpoint in occupied cites? See The Rape of Nanking for one example. The U.S. tried to use sanctions to stop the brutal and rapacious Japanese war machine, which was bent on total conquest and empire. The Japanese response to these sanctions was the attack on Pearl Harbor. Today, however, the Japanese have great respect and affection for the U.S., and we for them. They see us as a most honorable and good nation: though the Japanese had surrendered unconditionally, we sought no territorial concessions and even poured money into the country to help it back on its feet. We sought only to help Japan establish a democracy. Democracies do not go to war with one another.)

In order to achieve political ends, your educators have framed the stories of our history without their true first causes. Those who manipulate you believe that, if you hate America and blame us for your political and economic problems, you won�t focus on the real causes, which are your own countrymen among you who are in positions of power and influence.

(Were you aware that Muslim Arabs brought the African slave trade to Europe? That, Muslim Moors took more Europeans into slavery than Europeans took Africans? That the Spaniards initiated the mistreatment of American Indians by imitating the practices of the Muslims who had occupied their country and enslaved them for seven hundred years? That it was France that betrayed Faisal at the end of World War I?)

Now back to the central issue here, the Qu�ran.

Many of us non-Muslims believe that God, whom you call Allah, is too great to be fully understood by anyone. Our Holy Bible is often called �the Word of God,� but most of us understand that it is a record and compendium of literary work written and kept by human beings who witnessed important aspects of God over the millenia. Only by the arduous reading and rereading and study and discussion of this record was the some notion of some part of the Will of God able to be understood by its students. And thus has our understanding of God grown and evolved, and so will it continue to grow and evolve.

The Will of God is too great in space and time and diversity and complexity to be summed up in words, in one book or even a series of books. The most we can hope for is to have some gist of it and hope that we correctly interpret that inner voice through which God might speak to us, and even then, we are usually humble enough to take the counsel of others in this interpretation. We Christians are guided also by the example of Jesus, who allowed himself to be crucified rather than try to force his own notion of God on anyone. He forgave those who wished to be his enemies and left the truth of his words to stand as a point from which to evolve in a new direction.

And so we are not so quick to say that we have some knowledge of the Will of God that you of other faiths do not have, knowledge that you must accept from us. To assert this would be foolish and too bold, and we might well then deserve to be punished by having our cities torn by murderous rivalries and our citizens starved and massacred under the rule of tyrants.

For this reason and others that I will perhaps go into at some point, I cannot accept that the Qu'ran is what you believe it to be. But you are welcome to your beliefs! That is, I do not care what you choose to believe so long as your beliefs do not include the forcing of your beliefs on anyone. (Sura Nine, in verse five and elsewhere, seems to suggest otherwise, however.)

If you can accept my right to my own beliefs and can persuade the likes of bin Laden that they have no right to force their religion on us, we can live together in peace.

I don�t know if they can be persuaded.

Suffice it to say that we will not pay any jizya in support of an Islamic state. To us, that would be sacrilege! I hope that you can understand this.

With hopes for peace and understanding,

Astrophysicist 

If Saddam was known as a dreadful tyrant and the US only sold him 2% of his weapons, WHY did they help him fight off Iran when Iran fought back after Saddam's invasion of their country?

Yes, it's true that the US sold Iran weapons as well, but only because (as far as I am aware), some of Reagan's men got him to sign a few forms while he was till only semi-conscious after a major operation. And since many of us have the experience of being able to remember NOTHING for the first little while after coming out from general anasthetic, even if one _appears_ to be concious, this explains why Dear Ol' Ronnie could remember NOTHING about signing those forms and hence his confusion about why the US sold weapons to Iran.

Great way to govern, I must say. (NOT!)

Kim...

Greetings, Whisper and Kim:

Still this all you have to offer? Labels (e.g., "Neo-Con") and insults (e.g., "windy," which by the way is a good description of a "whisper")? (No, I don't mean to throw the insult back at you, only to ask you to consider the possibility of projection : "judge not that you be not judged....")

You know nothing of my views on other issues, by the way, Kim. I am not a "Neo-Con." But I also understand that this is one of those labels some of you leftists like to throw around in place of well-founded and well-reasoned arguments.

I note that no one anwered my question about what real tangible good the Muslim world has given us lately. You present no facts. You have shown me nothing but your hate-filled imaginings.

There are a lot of attacks here, so in the time I have I will do the best I can to address the points you raise.

Where is it that I pretend to be God? From my point of view, it is you who do that! And from my point of view, your one-sided education makes you among the least prepared in history to do so.

I grew up in a country with a free press, where all points of view on all issues are allowed free circulation. From my point of view, I do not speak half-truths. You do. Have you considered the possibility that much of what you think you know to be true is really illusion? Or are you God?

The Arab-Muslim countries in the region WANTED the U.S. to help oust Saddam's butchery machine from Kuwait. They invited us. Only we could get it done. It was mostly our dollars and our lives that were used to achieve it, and it would be ours again if Saddam attacked anyone again. So, we had some right to decide what to do and how to do it when he failed to abide by the terms of his surrender.

For the next twelve years, Saddam cheated and murdered hundreds of thousands, and hundreds of thousands more died while the U.N. "Food for Oil" program was pilfered by Kofi Annan and French, German, and Russian oil and arms dealers.

Hans Blix stated quite clearly that, because of Saddam's unwillingness to comply with UN inspection criteria, that there was "NO WAY TO KNOW THE STATUS OF HIS WEAPONS PROGRAMS UNTIL AMERICAN SOLDIERS had their boots on the ground" in Iraq and inspectors could see for themselves without interference.

You see, we have standards of conduct here. And so our military is trusted in Iraq far more than Saddam's military was -- or than your deceitful bands of suicides and murderers, who deliberately hide among women and children, kill anyone they can, and so have no honor.

Note that we did not plant any WMD. That would be the sort of thing you might expect from your al Queda types, who have no problem with deceit. But not us.

The Administraton did not lie to us about 9/11. That statement might be believed by some lunatic conspiracy theorists, but it is ridiculous, and most Americans are not stupid enough to believe it. I would suggest you try some other form of deceit, since that seems to be your specialty. (And from my point of view, that does not reflect well on your religious belief system.)

Sure the U.S. has made mistakes. The difference here is that mistakes are not hidden. And we don't lie and bury them and rewrite history the way you do. We find the mistakes, air them out, figure out what went wrong, and correct them as well as we can. The debates and misperceptions might linger longer than they should when that serves the political interests of this or that political group. But that is the price we pay for having an open society. In the end, we correct the mistakes and are getting better and better. Meanwhile, you ignore the numerous flaws of your countires and cultures, rot in them, fill with hate, and blame the U.S. for everything that ever goes wrong rather than improving yourselves.

Again, what tangible good have you had to offer the world recently?

Whether the Muslim occupiers of Spain and invaders of France (hundreds of years before the "Crusades,"  which were a long overdue military counterstroke) were tyrants or not is a matter of perspective. Who is permitted to write the histories and teach the public changes things significantly.

I have no position on the Iran/Iraq War. From the point of view of most Americans, the leadership of neither side was anything worth preserving. The Ba'athists were nasty brutal communists, but at least they were moving toward a more enlightened and evolved modern world view, unlike the Ayatollah, whose atavistic book "Islamic Government" reads like Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and is full of Islamic hubris, vile hatred, and not-so-very veiled threats against the larger part of the human race.

How you choose to characterize Reagan permitting arms sales to both sides is of no interest or consequence. You will believe whatever you want to believe and whatever serves your ego and psychopathic, Islamo-fascist need to kill.

Your discussion of the health care issue is especially absurd, Kim, typical of the sorts of apocryphal statement used to justify killing Americans. It would probably be better for your credibility if you did not make arguments about thtings that you know nothing about. You mistake "health care insurance," which is a relatively recent invention, to actual "health care." Everyone in the U.S. has access to health care. It is law that anyone who needs medical care will get it. A kid with a cold can go to any hospital emergency room, if he wants, and get free health care. And even at that, the 40% UNINSURED figure is a gross distortion, too. It is a much smaller number of UNINSURED, and most of those people are young people new to the work force who are healthy and don't want to spend $5000 a year on health insurance when they go to the doctor less than once a year anyway. Most of the rest are self-employed and self-insured.

I don't have time to answer every ignorant statement. I have to earn a living now, something you leftist and al Queda types would not understand -- hence your miserable condition and misplaced hatred.

No, the Bush Administration has not said that there would be "carnage without end." That is the sort of thing your Ayatollahs and terrorist leaders say and that you guys say here in these posts. It is you projecting your own psychoses onto the innocent so you have an excuse to satiate your war-pride and blood lust. Grow up. And get a real education and a real job and we will all be better off.

Peace.

Astro

 

 

P.S. Also, as far as mistakes by the U.S. is concerned, perhaps it was a mistake to try to help people whose religion apparently tells them that they must kill themselves and each other in order to spite those who try to help them, and that they must kill those who try to help them, too.

With astonishment at the narrow and lop-sided views and hostility I find here,

Your friend,

Astro

Edited by Astrophysicist