The Messiah is the Way, Truth & Life

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   John 14
Jesus Comforts His Disciples 
1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going." 
Jesus the Way to the Father 
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 Amen, Amen I say to you, anyone who believes in me will do the works I have done. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

My Questions:
Yeshua the Messiah was the "Sacrifice to End All Sacrifices"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 
Christians believe that the Messiah Yeshua replaced the Jewish Temple at Jerusalem.  First, Yeshua's crucifiction was the "Sacrifice to End All Sacrifices", and the spilling of Yeshua the Messiah's heavenly blood permanently ended the need to kill animals to propitiate God for the forgiveness of sins.  This need to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins comes from the Old Testament Book of Leviticus:

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it [is] the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.
This need to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins is also aptly summarized by the Apostle Saul Paulus in his Letter to the Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:22
and with blood almost all things are purified according to the law, and apart from blood-shedding forgiveness doth not come.
For the record, the Apostle Saul adopted the Greek name Paulus, meaning "Little", for his ministry amongst the Greek speaking Jews and, later, Gentiles of Greece and Anatolia (modern Turkey).  Saul Paulus, or Saul "The Little", repeatedly called himself the "Least of the Apostles" (1 Corinthians 15:9, Ephesians 3:8).
Therefore, since "there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood", Yeshua the Messiah had to bleed on the cross in order to obtain universal forgiveness for sin.  But, having done so, Yeshua the Messiah utterly obviated the need for any further sacrifice, of any kind, for any reason.  Thus, Yeshua the Messiah completely invalidated Solomon's Temple, whose sole reason for being was the sale and slaughter of animals to forgive Jews for their sins.  It is for this reason that Yeshua the Messiah drove the merchants from the Temple and said, "I will pull down this Temple made by the hands of men, and in three days I will build up another not made by the hands of men" (Mark 14:58, John 2:19).
For the record, the Temple Priests profited astronomically from this rampant animal sacrifice, by millions of Jews every "Holy Day", for practically every offense from stubbing your toe to swearing after you do so, which was made necessary by the words recorded in their Book of Leviticus.  This is why Yeshua the Messiah told those Priests that they had made the House of God into a "House of Robbers" (Matthew 21:13, Mark 11:17, Luke 19:46) or a "House of Merchandise" (John 2:16).  That is, Yeshua the Messiah was impugning the motives of the Temple Priests, claiming that they were putting wordly gain before God in their hearts.
The reader may note that Yeshua the Messiah called the Temple a "house built by the hands of men", an allegation that smacks of Nimrod and the Tower of Babel.  Yeshua the Messiah's Cleansing of the Temple was, therefore, more accurately a Spiritual Destruction of the Temple.  It is no accident that Yeshua the Messiah prophesized the Physical destruction of the Temple as well, "stone will not remain upon stone" (Matthew 24:2, Mark 13:2, Luke 19:44 & 21:6).  Clearly, the coming in of Yeshua the Messiah was the going out of the Temple of Solomon, and any attempts to rebuild it blaspheme Almighty God.
Yeshua the Messiah is the "Intercessor to End All Intercessors"

You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
My next point, related to the first, is that Christians say that Yeshua the Messiah is the "Intercessor to End All Intercessors".  That is, before Yeshua the Messiah, the Priesthood of Solomon's Temple claimed for itself the right to intercede between Sinful Man and Holy God.  The Priests claimed that only they, as purified Holy Men, could righteously enter the Inner Sanctuaries of Solomon's Temple to perform the sacrifices required to atone for men's sins.  Indeed, this is why the Temple had seven (7) concentric courts, which were designed to progressively shield the Holy of Holies from the corruptions of the world.  
We argued above that Christians say that the spilling of Yeshua the Messiah's blood on the cross terminated Solomon's Temple.  In the same vein, Christians say that Yeshua the Messiah terminated the Temple Priesthood too, because now Yeshua the Messiah is the only intercessor between Holy God and Sinful Mankind.  Hence, we now ask from God through Yeshua the Messiah.  That is, we "pray in Jesus' name".

I would like to know, as precisely as possible, how this is or is not compatible with Islam.  I understand that Islam acknowledges Yeshua as the Messiah (Issa the Massih).  I also understand that Islam does not acknowledge any need to rebuild Solomon's Temple.  Does this imply that Islam, in agreement with Christianity, holds that Yeshua the Messiah terminated the Temple and the Temple Priesthood for the above-mentioned reasons?  Does Islam hold that Yeshua the Messiah's ministry was, in essence, a direct rebuttle to the Temple?
Christians often quote Old & New Testament passages such as:

"Yes, all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious ideal;"     Romans 3:23

"But the trouble is that your sins have cut you off from God. Because of sin he has turned his face away from you and will not listen anymore."   Isaiah 59:2
to support this conception of omnipresent sin, and the impending Wrath of God, which we can only escape through God's Mercy by our sincere repentence and belief in Yeshua as Messiah.  Yeshua the Messiah then becomes for us our spiritual "Great High Priest" (Hebrews 4:14), and all Believers become the "Royal Priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9).  Indeed, as with Simon Kephas (Peter, "The Rock") in Matthew 16:18, all Believers become "Living Stones" in the "Spiritual Temple" of the Body of Believers.  (Christians call The Church the Body of Christ or Body of Believers in Christ, from John 2:21.)  This is how Yeshua the Messiah fulfilled the Old Testament Messianic prophecy of rebuilding the Temple.

What I have tried to do here is show what Christianity means when Yeshua the Messiah says, "I am the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father but through me" and "Ask anything in my name, and I will do it."
Christians are saying "Yeshua the Messiah terminated the Temple, and assumed its functions for us, if we but Believe in him (as being the Messiah)."
But I think praying in Jesus' name would not be allowed in Islam.
And Christians often use "None come to the Father but through Jesus" as "proof" that only Christianity is true, and Islam is wrong.
But on the other hand, Islam does acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah... so perhaps that means Islam does "come through Jesus to the Father", as it were?
So, does Islam acknowledge that Jesus brought about "Salvation" to mankind through fulfilling the Old Testament Messianic Prophecies about him?  If Islam says, "Yes, Jesus was the Messiah, and yes Jesus fulfilled the Messianic Prophecies, and yes Jesus thereby bought 'freedom from the Law' in the sense that he terminated the oppressive mantle of Solomon's Temple and replaced it with a 'lighter yoke' of Belief in his Messiahship"...
... if all that were true, then I don't think there would actually be conflict between Islamic doctrine and Christian doctrine on this issue, so that "None come to the Father but through Jesus" would actually apply to Muslims as well.
These are some questions I had.  I am personally very interested in doctrinal minutiae like this.  I do want to stress that just becuase Judaism today no longer holds this concept of an oppressive "sin burden" that drives you to spend all your money in the Temple on sacrifices -- that the Temple Priests then get to eat, it's quite a deal, they sell you the animal, and then get to eat the resulting barbeque too! -- does not mean that Judaism 2000 years ago did not have that concept.  Judaism was radically altered by the destruction of the Temple in about 70 AD.  Judaism was forced to adopt a much more muted sense of sin, and that prayer and repentence could atone for your sins.  Otherwise, Jews would have felt emersed in sin and have no way out!  So, interestingly, Judaism was forced to adopt a more muted and softened and less legalistic conception of sin much more in line with Yeshua the Messiah's teachings (on that point).  But I think Judaism 2000 years ago, under the Temple, really did have this sense of Original Sin that was later adopted by Roman Catholicism (and used to intimidate the peasants into toiling away on church owned plantations and giving them lots of money in tithes to buy their condemned souls out of Purgatory).
I would really appreciate specific answers to these questions.

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Bismarck Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bismarck Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: The Messiah is the Way, Truth & Life Posted: 06 March 2006 at 12:01am
	John 14 Jesus Comforts His Disciples 1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going." Jesus the Way to the Father 5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 Amen, Amen I say to you, anyone who believes in me will do the works I have done. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. My Questions: Yeshua the Messiah was the "Sacrifice to End All Sacrifices" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Christians believe that the Messiah Yeshua replaced the Jewish Temple at Jerusalem. First, Yeshua's crucifiction was the "Sacrifice to End All Sacrifices", and the spilling of Yeshua the Messiah's heavenly blood permanently ended the need to kill animals to propitiate God for the forgiveness of sins. This need to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins comes from the Old Testament Book of Leviticus: Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it [is] the blood which maketh atonement for the soul. This need to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins is also aptly summarized by the Apostle Saul Paulus in his Letter to the Hebrews: Hebrews 9:22 and with blood almost all things are purified according to the law, and apart from blood-shedding forgiveness doth not come. For the record, the Apostle Saul adopted the Greek name Paulus, meaning "Little", for his ministry amongst the Greek speaking Jews and, later, Gentiles of Greece and Anatolia (modern Turkey). Saul Paulus, or Saul "The Little", repeatedly called himself the "Least of the Apostles" (1 Corinthians 15:9, Ephesians 3:8). Therefore, since "there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood", Yeshua the Messiah had to bleed on the cross in order to obtain universal forgiveness for sin. But, having done so, Yeshua the Messiah utterly obviated the need for any further sacrifice, of any kind, for any reason. Thus, Yeshua the Messiah completely invalidated Solomon's Temple, whose sole reason for being was the sale and slaughter of animals to forgive Jews for their sins. It is for this reason that Yeshua the Messiah drove the merchants from the Temple and said, "I will pull down this Temple made by the hands of men, and in three days I will build up another not made by the hands of men" (Mark 14:58, John 2:19). For the record, the Temple Priests profited astronomically from this rampant animal sacrifice, by millions of Jews every "Holy Day", for practically every offense from stubbing your toe to swearing after you do so, which was made necessary by the words recorded in their Book of Leviticus. This is why Yeshua the Messiah told those Priests that they had made the House of God into a "House of Robbers" (Matthew 21:13, Mark 11:17, Luke 19:46) or a "House of Merchandise" (John 2:16). That is, Yeshua the Messiah was impugning the motives of the Temple Priests, claiming that they were putting wordly gain before God in their hearts. The reader may note that Yeshua the Messiah called the Temple a "house built by the hands of men", an allegation that smacks of Nimrod and the Tower of Babel. Yeshua the Messiah's Cleansing of the Temple was, therefore, more accurately a Spiritual Destruction of the Temple. It is no accident that Yeshua the Messiah prophesized the Physical destruction of the Temple as well, "stone will not remain upon stone" (Matthew 24:2, Mark 13:2, Luke 19:44 & 21:6). Clearly, the coming in of Yeshua the Messiah was the going out of the Temple of Solomon, and any attempts to rebuild it blaspheme Almighty God. Yeshua the Messiah is the "Intercessor to End All Intercessors" You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. My next point, related to the first, is that Christians say that Yeshua the Messiah is the "Intercessor to End All Intercessors". That is, before Yeshua the Messiah, the Priesthood of Solomon's Temple claimed for itself the right to intercede between Sinful Man and Holy God. The Priests claimed that only they, as purified Holy Men, could righteously enter the Inner Sanctuaries of Solomon's Temple to perform the sacrifices required to atone for men's sins. Indeed, this is why the Temple had seven (7) concentric courts, which were designed to progressively shield the Holy of Holies from the corruptions of the world. We argued above that Christians say that the spilling of Yeshua the Messiah's blood on the cross terminated Solomon's Temple. In the same vein, Christians say that Yeshua the Messiah terminated the Temple Priesthood too, because now Yeshua the Messiah is the only intercessor between Holy God and Sinful Mankind. Hence, we now ask from God through Yeshua the Messiah. That is, we "pray in Jesus' name". I would like to know, as precisely as possible, how this is or is not compatible with Islam. I understand that Islam acknowledges Yeshua as the Messiah (Issa the Massih). I also understand that Islam does not acknowledge any need to rebuild Solomon's Temple. Does this imply that Islam, in agreement with Christianity, holds that Yeshua the Messiah terminated the Temple and the Temple Priesthood for the above-mentioned reasons? Does Islam hold that Yeshua the Messiah's ministry was, in essence, a direct rebuttle to the Temple? Christians often quote Old & New Testament passages such as: "Yes, all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious ideal;" Romans 3:23 "But the trouble is that your sins have cut you off from God. Because of sin he has turned his face away from you and will not listen anymore." Isaiah 59:2 to support this conception of omnipresent sin, and the impending Wrath of God, which we can only escape through God's Mercy by our sincere repentence and belief in Yeshua as Messiah. Yeshua the Messiah then becomes for us our spiritual "Great High Priest" (Hebrews 4:14), and all Believers become the "Royal Priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9). Indeed, as with Simon Kephas (Peter, "The Rock") in Matthew 16:18, all Believers become "Living Stones" in the "Spiritual Temple" of the Body of Believers. (Christians call The Church the Body of Christ or Body of Believers in Christ, from John 2:21.) This is how Yeshua the Messiah fulfilled the Old Testament Messianic prophecy of rebuilding the Temple. What I have tried to do here is show what Christianity means when Yeshua the Messiah says, "I am the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father but through me" and "Ask anything in my name, and I will do it." Christians are saying "Yeshua the Messiah terminated the Temple, and assumed its functions for us, if we but Believe in him (as being the Messiah)." But I think praying in Jesus' name would not be allowed in Islam. And Christians often use "None come to the Father but through Jesus" as "proof" that only Christianity is true, and Islam is wrong. But on the other hand, Islam does acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah... so perhaps that means Islam does "come through Jesus to the Father", as it were? So, does Islam acknowledge that Jesus brought about "Salvation" to mankind through fulfilling the Old Testament Messianic Prophecies about him? If Islam says, "Yes, Jesus was the Messiah, and yes Jesus fulfilled the Messianic Prophecies, and yes Jesus thereby bought 'freedom from the Law' in the sense that he terminated the oppressive mantle of Solomon's Temple and replaced it with a 'lighter yoke' of Belief in his Messiahship"... ... if all that were true, then I don't think there would actually be conflict between Islamic doctrine and Christian doctrine on this issue, so that "None come to the Father but through Jesus" would actually apply to Muslims as well. These are some questions I had. I am personally very interested in doctrinal minutiae like this. I do want to stress that just becuase Judaism today no longer holds this concept of an oppressive "sin burden" that drives you to spend all your money in the Temple on sacrifices -- that the Temple Priests then get to eat, it's quite a deal, they sell you the animal, and then get to eat the resulting barbeque too! -- does not mean that Judaism 2000 years ago did not have that concept. Judaism was radically altered by the destruction of the Temple in about 70 AD. Judaism was forced to adopt a much more muted sense of sin, and that prayer and repentence could atone for your sins. Otherwise, Jews would have felt emersed in sin and have no way out! So, interestingly, Judaism was forced to adopt a more muted and softened and less legalistic conception of sin much more in line with Yeshua the Messiah's teachings (on that point). But I think Judaism 2000 years ago, under the Temple, really did have this sense of Original Sin that was later adopted by Roman Catholicism (and used to intimidate the peasants into toiling away on church owned plantations and giving them lots of money in tithes to buy their condemned souls out of Purgatory). I would really appreciate specific answers to these questions.

fredifreeloader Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456	Post Options Post Reply Quote fredifreeloader Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 March 2006 at 4:13am
	*bismarck* - i agree with your post, thanks for putting it up. the only quibble i think i would have is your reference to solomons temple, in fact at the time of the Lord it was herods temple. also i do not think that the cleansing of the temple was its spiritual destruction, rather it proves that the temple was still valid at that time. the temple was invalidated in luke 23: 45, during the three hours of darkness on the cross when "God made to meet upon him the iniquity of us all", and the veil seperating the holy place from the holiest of all was "rent in the midst" or as another of the gospels puts it "from top to bottom", the way to God now being open to all through faith in Christ i do like these phrases you are using - "the sacrifice to end all sacrifices" and the "intercessor to end all intercessors", and your drawing attention to Christ as the "great high priest" - hebrews 7: 25 - *"wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them"* - a precious truth that needs to be emphasized as it passes muslims by, as does the great sin question which you also rightly raise. all sin must be paid for, one way or another, the great thing is that Christ has paid for it through the blood of his cross. muslims deny this, and therefore will bear the penalty of their sin. thinking that God can just forgive sin without any basis for the forgiveness, they show they do not acknowledge the terrible holiness of God Edited by fredifreeloader
	for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16

rami Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549	Post Options Post Reply Quote rami Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 March 2006 at 5:55am
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem Hi Bismark, Allah says in the Quran regarding the sacrafice of animals: It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah: it is your piety that reaches Him. We each atone for our own sins through good works and repentance but ultimately as our prophet says non will enter heaven except by the mercy of Allah. Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. This is correct but look at this statment throught the context of time, while Isa was still on earth performing his mission there was no other way to the Allah but through him, after his being raised how much of his message remained free from coruption and alteration, would you agree that Allah had prior knowledge of this, would you also agree that he would not leave humanity without clear guidance. When Allah sent the prophet muhammad this statment was also true for him "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." it isnt an exclusionary statment, it needs to be looked at in context of time. That is, before Yeshua the Messiah, the Priesthood of Solomon's Temple claimed for itself the right to intercede between Sinful Man and Holy God. if the jews where on the correct religion at that time then there would be no need for Allah to send the messiah, but by that time jews had altered there scripture and were practicing something other than the religion of moses. For a muslim sacraficing an animal so your sins can be forgiven is something we dont accept as the verse above indicates, we sacrafice to honour the sacrafice of abraham and give the meat away to the poor which is an act of obediance and piety and it is the piety that allah accepts not the sacrafice. So, does Islam acknowledge that Jesus brought about "Salvation" to mankind through fulfilling the Old Testament Messianic Prophecies about him? If Islam says, "Yes, Jesus was the Messiah, and yes Jesus fulfilled the Messianic Prophecies, and yes Jesus thereby bought 'freedom from the Law' in the sense that he terminated the oppressive mantle of Solomon's Temple and replaced it with a 'lighter yoke' of Belief in his Messiahship"... ... if all that were true, then I don't think there would actually be conflict between Islamic doctrine and Christian doctrine on this issue, so that "None come to the Father but through Jesus" would actually apply to Muslims as well. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God; (al-Qur'an 3:45) O People of the Book, commit no excesses in your religion; nor say of Allah anything but the truth. The Messiah Jesus son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist! It will be better for you: for Allah is One: Glory be to Him! (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (al-Qur'an 4:171) The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. (al-Qur'an 3:59) That they said (in boast) "We killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for, of a surety they killed him not. No, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (al-Qur'an 4:157-158) Isa like all prophets was a salvation to the people he was sent to save, we accept him and his role but we dont accept that he died for our sins or that anyone could die for the sins of others And no burdened soul can bear another's burden, and if one heavy laden crieth for (help with) his load, naught of it will be lifted even though he (unto whom he crieth) be of kin. Thou warnest only those who fear their Lord in secret, and have established worship. He who groweth (in goodness), groweth only for himself, (he cannot by his merit redeem others). Unto Allah is the journeying. (35:18) Allah is not looking for sacrafice but piety and true worship of him, he is talking about the state of our hearts and moral wellbeing as this alone will determine if we are succesfull. �The Day whereon neither wealth nor sons will avail, but only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart.� (Quran; 26:88-89) The Prophet (SAW) is reported to have said: �Truly, Allah does not look at your outward appearance or your wealth, but He looks at your hearts and your deeds.� (Muslim) To say allah requires sacrifice is to say he is in need of material things, which is atributing defieciency to him as he is in need of nothing. To put this in analogy, if a person has over half the wealth in the world would you still say he is in "need" of wealth, Allah is the creator why would he be in need of something he created. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

pauline35 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 November 2005 Location: Malaysia Status: Offline Points: 459	Post Options Post Reply Quote pauline35 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 March 2006 at 8:04am
	Rami wrote : Isa like all prophets was a salvation to the people he was sent to save, we accept him and his role but we dont accept that he died for our sins or that anyone could die for the sins of others My Questions : If Jesus died for our sins which I argue the sins before his death, then what about the sins after his death? Does he need to die another time for our sins after his death? No wonder Prophet Muhammad is the last messiah being truthful, precise and logical about humanity.

pauline35 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 November 2005 Location: Malaysia Status: Offline Points: 459	Post Options Post Reply Quote pauline35 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 March 2006 at 8:09am
	Rami also wrote : To say allah requires sacrifice is to say he is in need of material things, which is atributing defieciency to him as he is in need of nothing. To put this in analogy, if a person has over half the wealth in the world would you still say he is in "need" of wealth, Allah is the creator why would he be in need of something he created. I agree with you Rami. And that makes two of us. Edited by pauline35

DavidC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474	Post Options Post Reply Quote DavidC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 March 2006 at 8:51am
	Sacrifice refers to the person 's state of mind; not to a gift. Sacrificing to God is not the same as giving him presents, and it is not the same as praise. It is a most common human tendency to forget about God when not in need. We need sacrifices - and the wisdom of Islam is replete with daily sacrifice, beginning with salat - to maintain conscious contact with God. As for "Jesus died for our sins", the sin was the degeneration of Judiasm into hypocracy. Jesus death and resurrection proved the existence of an afterlife. It established at-one-ment with God that had been lost, and opened a channel for grace. Jesus was not a spiritual mulligan or get out of hell free card.
	Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

pauline35 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 November 2005 Location: Malaysia Status: Offline Points: 459	Post Options Post Reply Quote pauline35 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 March 2006 at 9:27am
	DavidC said : the sin was the degeneration of Judiasm into hypocracy. Is Judiasm getting back on track after Jesus washed their sins? Let's say if Judiasm have gone astray after Jesus's death, will Jesus reborn and die another day? If Jesus was to wash the sins of Judaism's hypocrisy only, then many Christian etc will not need to perform grace for they are not Judaism.

Angela Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555	Post Options Post Reply Quote Angela Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 March 2006 at 9:30am
	I agree David, Too many people think the atonement means they don't have to worry about hell as long as they accept Jesus as their savior. This is false doctrine and pretty tales told by born agains. We are all responsible for our actions. If we sin, we must repent and seriously work at not repeating the action. Being saved by Jesus's grace is that if we do our very best, we absolutely work hard at being obedient and good, that after all that hard work, grace takes care of the rest. Do we still need to worry about sinning and going to hell? Yes, because if we are disobedient we will still be punished for that. *This is just a test and since I know you won't mind my using one of your posts for a test, I am doing so on yours * Edited by Khadija1021