What diff. does "Divinity" of Jesus make?

The ramifications start with the loss of the Atoning Sacrifice. Without accepting the atonement, you essentially loose everything. I am on my way out the door and do not have the time to go further into this, but I'm sure by the time I return, Fredi, George and Patty will have said everything I'm thinking on my first example. Good night all.

It was not only the cross, the crucifixion, upon which our Christ died, we also have to consider that He resurrected on the third day, just as He promised He would. If He had not, no one would have believed Him, and Jesus would have been only another man who was crucified by the Roman on the Cross. But death could not hold Him, he arose from the grave, and in 40 days ascended on a cloud in view of His apostles into the Heavens. He then sent the Holy Spirit to us, just as He promised, on the Day of Pentecost! No, there is no possibility of "demoting" our Precious Lord and Savior, who came down from Heaven as a human male. He was always divine. He was without sin. How many of us can say that? Certainly not I. Jesus was truly God incarnate.

God's Peace,

Patty

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.

Alibaba wrote:

One of the ramifications of "demoting" Christ to a mere man is the fact that only God Himself could provide an infinite sacrifice. For instance, one man might die in the place of another. But one man cannot die in the place of billions of those under a death sentence.

Since your faith is based upon replacement theology, could you please show me in the Hebrew Scriptures where mankind is in need of a superman to be a super sacrifice? I have searched the Torah and cannot find any need for Gd to send Himself to take a Gdlike beating for mankind. The Torah gives a readily available method for sin atonement, and I would like for you to show me where something lacks?

Alibaba wrote:

Thus, the atoning sacrifice had to be infinite - and God, Who is Infinite, was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. The God/Man, Jesus Christ, provided an infinite atonement for "all" who call upon His Name.

If he was a literal sacrifice, with literal blood, could you please tell me where the literal stone alter was that was required for all "literal" blood sacrifices?

Thanks

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of God and Jesus is neither God nor the son of God.

1)Jesus is not God because Jesus is a messenger of God: And when Jesus son of Mary said. 'children of Israel. I am indeed the Messenger to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be the praised one (note that this is translation of Ahmad which is Prophet Muhammad�s name). (Quran 61:6)...In Matthew 21:11, the people of his time are recorded as referring to Jesus as a prophet: �And the crowds said, �This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.� �

2)Jesus is not God because Jesus was created by God.As we all know that God exists by Himself but Jesus was born by Mary so Jesus is not God:

a) Jesus is not the son of God for Jesus is the son of Mary. That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing. He but says to it "Be". and it is. (Quran 19:34-5). The Bible itself calls Jesus the son of man so many times throughout the Bible to prove that Jesus is a human being.

b) Jesus is not God because it is God who had created Jesus. Qur�an clarifies that Jesus� virgin birth did not change the state of his humanity �Surely, the example of Jesus, in Allah�s sight, is like that of Adam. He created him from dust and said: �Be!� and he was.� (Qur�an, 3:59)

3. Jesus is not God because Jesus is a servant of God: �[When] she pointed to him, they asked, �How can we talk to a child in the cradle?� He [Jesus] said: �Indeed, I am a servant of Allaah. He gave me the scripture and made me a prophet.� � (Qur�an 19:29-30)

Jesus is a porphet of God so Jesus is not God : �The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus� (Acts 3:13).

4. Jesus is not God for Jesus is made of flesh. On the contrary God is not made of flesh.

5. Jesus is not God for Jesus look like human being and he needs to drink and eat in order to live. On the contrary God is the Self-Sufficient and God says that none is like God so Jesus is not God.

The Qur�anic revelation not only affirms Jesus� prophethood, but it also clearly denies Jesus� divinity. In Chapter al-Maa�idah, (5): 78, God points out that Jesus ate food, which is a human act, obviously not befitting to God:

Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Jesus is not God for Jesus is a human being who is thirsty and hungry "Jesus saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28) and "and on the
morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12)

Jesus was a man who spoke the truth which he heard from God: Jesus says to the Israelites: "You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God" (John 8:40). Jesus is referred to as a �man�, distinct and different from God.Therefore Jesus is a man and he is not God! After all it is Allah (God) who has created man. A creation of God cannot become God!

There are also verses in the Qur�aan which confirm Prophet Muhammad�s humanity, in order to prevent his followers from elevating him to a divine or semi-divine status, as was done to Prophet Jesus. For example:The prophet Muhammad says �Say: �Indeed, I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your God is only one God.� �(The Holy Quran Chapter al-Kahf (18):110)

6. In Islam Allah(God) is the Almighty but Jesus is a powerless man who depends on God's help and permissions so Jesus is not God for there are no powerless gods. During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles.

Quran says in 5.113 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Jesus is a powerless man so Jesus is not God: Jesus is quoted in John 5:30, as saying "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me"...This means that Jesus cannot do anythiing without God's permission and help... Note: The prophets of Allah(God) had done some miracles but they were not God for they did the miracles through God's help and permission. Without Allah's permission and help, they could not do anything.

7. Jesus himself denies that he is God by saying: (a) There are numerous clear and direct texts in which Jesus denies equality with God or possessing any of God�s divine attributes (see for example John 8: 28-29, 14: 10, 24. 28. 31. Mk. 13: 32, 10: 18) . For example: In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: �The Father is greater than I.� By stating that the �Father� is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Therefore Jesus is not God for Jesus is not God's co-equal!

(b)The final scripture, the Qur�aan, clarifies the issue of worshipping or not worshipping Jesus, by quoting a conversation which will take place between Jesus and God on the Day of Judgement:

'And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." '(Quran 5:119)

There are Christians who believe that Jesus is God but the Bible refutes their claim by God�s own declaration affirms the doctrine of the immutability of God. For example: Numbers 23:19: 'God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent' and in Malachi 3:6 God says, "For l am the Lord; I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

Therefore Jesus is not God for Jesus is a man and God is not a man.

Quran has differentiated between God and His creations:

(1) Surah 112 - Al Ikhlas THE PURITY OF FAITH

112.001 Say: He is God, the One and Only;
112.002 God, the Eternal, Absolute;
112.003 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
112.004 And there is none like unto Him.

(2) Who Is Allah? He is God; there is no god but He. He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God; there is no god but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of the Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the Almighty, the All-Wise� (Quran 59:22-24).

           � There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious� (Quran 2:255).

(3) Who is Jesus? � The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not "Three". Refrain; better it is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him -- (He is) above having a son� (Quran 4:171).

Part of Prophet Jesus� message was to inform his followers of the prophet who would come after him. As John the Baptist heralded the coming of Jesus Christ, Jesus in turn heralded the coming of the last of the prophets of God, Muhammad:

Quran 61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"
Quran 61:7 Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against God, even as he is being invited to Islam? And God guides not those who do wrong.

According to the Gosple Jesus had prophesied the coming of Prophet Muhammad.In the Gospel according to John 14:16, Jesus is quoted as saying, �And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever.�

Christians try to corrupt this prophecy to reject Muhammad who is the Last Messenger of God by saying falsely that the �Counselor� is the Holy Spirit. However, the phrase �another Counselor� implies that it will be someone else like Jesus and not the Holy Spirit. The  �Counselor� is not the Holy Spirit because�according to the Gospels �the Holy Spirit was already present in the world prior to Jesus� birth. According John 16:7 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.The  �Counselor� would come after Jesus was gone.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment...The  �Counselor� is the great prophet Muhammad who is the last messenger of Allah(God) to all mankind to complete the teachings of God after Jesus was rejected by the lost sheeps of Israel to whom Jesus was sent by God and the teachings of Jesus were corrupted into a lie by the Christians.The Bible contains so many errors and contradictions so it is not the Word of God anymore for God will never contracdict Himself That is why God sends Quran to all mankind to replace the corrupt Bible ( The OT and NT).
Allah (S.W.T.) (Subhanahu wa ta�ala, meaning: the Exalted, Most Glorious) tells mankind that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) is no more than a Messenger (Qur�an 3: 144), the unlettered Prophet who believes in Him and His Words (Qur�an 7: 158). He is the Seal of the Prophets and the true universal Messenger of All�h to the whole mankind (Qur�an 33: 40).
Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty, makes this very clear:"We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but as a universal (Messenger) to men giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin) but most men understand not." (Qur�n 34: 28)
"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): �If you (really) love All�h then follow me (i.e. accept Isl�mic Monotheism, follow the Qur��n and the Sunnah), All�h will love you and forgive you your sins. And All�h is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.� Say (O Muhammad): �Obey All�h and the Messenger (Muhammad).� But if they turn away, then All�h does not like the disbelievers." (Qur�an 3: 31)
"O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad) with the truth from your Rabb (Sustainer). So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to All�h belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And All�h is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise." (Qur�n 4: 170)
"O you who believe! Obey All�h, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (Qur�n 47: 33)

Edited by AbRah2006

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)