Belief in Qutb, Ghawth and Abdal

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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

 Belief in Qutb, Ghawth and Abdal

 Q: In defense against those who believe that Islam is devoid of spiritual 
ranks of merit, mysticism, or miracles; what is the basis for belief concerning 
the awliya and their hierarchy? What is agreed upon as regards their 
existence and the existence of the Qutb?

Wa alaykum as-Salam:

The Holy Qur'an explicitly mentions the Awliya and describes them as the 
Believers who fear Allah:

 Behold! verily on the 
friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve;[10:62]

 So we must all agree that there are Awliya and that they exist 
co-terminally, which means co-everlastingly, with the Religion.

Next, the Holy Qur'an explicitly mentions that the Believers have "levels" (darajaat), 
and that "He raises" (yarfa`u) some of the Believers above others:

    O ye who believe! When ye are told to make room in the assemblies, (spread 
    out and) make room: (ample) room will Allah provide for you. And when ye are 
    told to rise up, rise up. Allah will rise up, to (suitable) ranks (and 
    degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted (mystic) 
    Knowledge. And Allah is well- acquainted with all ye do. [58:11]

 and that:

  "above every knowledgeable one there is one more knowledgeable," [12:76]:

and that "those whom Allah has particularly graced" 
are defined as "the Prophets, the Siddiqs, the Shuhada', and the 
Righteous" in that order:
 وَمَن 
يُطِعِ اللّهَ  وَالرَّس 15;ولَ  فَأُوْلَ 00;ئِكَ  مَعَ  
 [4:69]

and that some Prophets were exalted above others. So 
we must all agree that there is a hierarchy of Believers in general, and 
hierarchies of Awliya and Prophets in particular.

The early scholars of hadith were very interested in the topic of the Awliya' 
and they gathered not only the hadiths but even non-Prophetic accounts about 
their states and miraculous gifts, and even dreams. For example, Ibn Abi al-Dunya's 
al-Awliya and the compilations respectively entitled al-Awliya' and 
Karaamaat al-Awliya' by the two Hanbalis al-Khallal and al-Lalika'i, as well 
as Abu Nu`aym's renowned Hilyat al-Awliya.

These books are available to us but ignorance is human and people tend to be the 
enemies of what they don't know, including "those who believe that Islam is 
devoid of spiritual ranks of merit... or miracles." The Holy Prophet, upon him 
blessings and peace, said that the only cure for the malady of ignorance is to 
ask. 
 The Companion Sufyan ibn `Uyayna said, "The learned scholar does not care 
for people's positions or feelings when he disseminates the Divine wisdom; if 
you accept he praises Allah, and if you reject he praises Allah." (As for the 
term "mysticism," it is best to steer clear of it since it is largely 
misunderstood to mean something ethereal or purely spiritual and tends to betray 
the fact that the Awliya are the most practical and act-oriented people 
of humankind.)

As for a specific terminology for the Awliya' the Prophet, upon him 
blessings and peace, did use certain terms such as Abdal (substitutes), 
or certain qualifications of intercession such as the hadiths in which he refers 
to certain arch-intercessors such as our liegelords `Uthman ibn `Affan and Uways 
al-Qarani. Ibn `Asakir in his Tarikh (51:282) narrates with his chain 
that when Imam al-Shafi`i finished memorizing the Qur'an he said to himself: 
"You have obtained the Qutb al-A`zam" i.e. the greatest axis or authority 
around which the Religion revolves.

However, the terms "ghawth", "qutb" and the like to mean 
individuals among the Awliya' may have been devised as a convention among 
later scholars (see, for example, the treatises by al-Suyuti in al-Hawi 
lil-Fatawi and Ibn `Abidin in his Rasa'il) and are not binding upon 
the Muslims as terminology. As the scholars say, "la mushahata fil-mustalah," 
meaning: "Don't nag about how we call things."

Was-Salam,

GF Haddad & staff

Edited by rami

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rami Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549	Post Options Post Reply Quote rami Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Belief in Qutb, Ghawth and Abdal Posted: 12 July 2007 at 10:10am
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum Belief in Qutb, Ghawth and Abdal Q: In defense against those who believe that Islam is devoid of spiritual ranks of merit, mysticism, or miracles; what is the basis for belief concerning the awliya and their hierarchy? What is agreed upon as regards their existence and the existence of the Qutb? Wa alaykum as-Salam: The Holy Qur'an explicitly mentions the Awliya and describes them as the Believers who fear Allah: Behold! verily on the friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve;[10:62] So we must all agree that there are Awliya and that they exist co-terminally, which means co-everlastingly, with the Religion. Next, the Holy Qur'an explicitly mentions that the Believers have "levels" (darajaat), and that "He raises" (yarfa`u) some of the Believers above others: O ye who believe! When ye are told to make room in the assemblies, (spread out and) make room: (ample) room will Allah provide for you. And when ye are told to rise up, rise up. Allah will rise up, to (suitable) ranks (and degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted (mystic) Knowledge. And Allah is well- acquainted with all ye do. [58:11] and that: "above every knowledgeable one there is one more knowledgeable," [12:76]: and that "those whom Allah has particularly graced" are defined as "the Prophets, the Siddiqs, the Shuhada', and the Righteous" in that order: وَمَن يُطِعِ اللّهَ وَالرَّس 15;ولَ فَأُوْلَ 00;ئِكَ مَعَ [4:69] and that some Prophets were exalted above others. So we must all agree that there is a hierarchy of Believers in general, and hierarchies of Awliya and Prophets in particular. The early scholars of hadith were very interested in the topic of the Awliya' and they gathered not only the hadiths but even non-Prophetic accounts about their states and miraculous gifts, and even dreams. For example, Ibn Abi al-Dunya's al-Awliya and the compilations respectively entitled al-Awliya' and Karaamaat al-Awliya' by the two Hanbalis al-Khallal and al-Lalika'i, as well as Abu Nu`aym's renowned Hilyat al-Awliya. These books are available to us but ignorance is human and people tend to be the enemies of what they don't know, including "those who believe that Islam is devoid of spiritual ranks of merit... or miracles." The Holy Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, said that the only cure for the malady of ignorance is to ask. The Companion Sufyan ibn `Uyayna said, "The learned scholar does not care for people's positions or feelings when he disseminates the Divine wisdom; if you accept he praises Allah, and if you reject he praises Allah." (As for the term "mysticism," it is best to steer clear of it since it is largely misunderstood to mean something ethereal or purely spiritual and tends to betray the fact that the Awliya are the most practical and act-oriented people of humankind.) As for a specific terminology for the Awliya' the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, did use certain terms such as Abdal (substitutes), or certain qualifications of intercession such as the hadiths in which he refers to certain arch-intercessors such as our liegelords `Uthman ibn `Affan and Uways al-Qarani. Ibn `Asakir in his Tarikh (51:282) narrates with his chain that when Imam al-Shafi`i finished memorizing the Qur'an he said to himself: "You have obtained the Qutb al-A`zam" i.e. the greatest axis or authority around which the Religion revolves. However, the terms "ghawth", "qutb" and the like to mean individuals among the Awliya' may have been devised as a convention among later scholars (see, for example, the treatises by al-Suyuti in al-Hawi lil-Fatawi and Ibn `Abidin in his Rasa'il) and are not binding upon the Muslims as terminology. As the scholars say, "la mushahata fil-mustalah," meaning: "Don't nag about how we call things." Was-Salam, GF Haddad & staff Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

Abu Mujahid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 14 April 2007 Status: Offline Points: 264	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abu Mujahid Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 July 2007 at 5:54am
	I really enjoyed his makeover of these fake Qutb, Qawth and Abdalis. I got him this Sufi but I wonder who will buy his extensive distortion. I'm sure non of his painting has anything to do with Quran and authentic sunnah. May Allah guide him to right path Abu Mujahid
	Islam need true muslims

rami Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549	Post Options Post Reply Quote rami Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 July 2007 at 7:52am
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem According to many salaf'i's [as is also evident by br Abu Mujahid's words above] it is a legal principles in there school of law that any word not used in the time of the prophet is haram to use, period. regarding the word Qutb, Allah says people have ranks, rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] being the best of creation that is his rank, i think we can all agree on this basic point. So from this we know the prophets have there ranks in Allah's eyes, we also read in the Quran there are people of the left hand, people of the right hand and finaly people of nearness all denoting ranks among the common people. Rasul allah himself said Abu bakr was the best of his ummah followed by Umar then Uthman then Ali by consensus of the ulumah, then we have the 10 granted paradise while still alive....etc, there are many examples i can reference. I think we can also agree with this simple fact. so now applying this to our current time, we can easily see that all humans on earth today have a rank with Allah some higher than others. I think we can also agree with this, now getting to the labels, the best people alive today by the definition of the word itself as it is used in the Quran and sunnah are called awliyah, other terms include sidiqin. no one can dispute this point i think, or have i lost you there br? so we can also deduce that among the awliyah while rising up among there ranks we will eventually reach the best human alive on earth by Allah's estimation, you now have two choices you can constantly seek to explain away this matter every single time it is brought up or like anything else in this world label it for the sake of making life easy for everyone. Well the Uluma in there wisdom chose the later and decided to make life easier for the rest of us and label the rank of this individual as Qutb. I can understand your beliefe that we should not use words that where not used in the prophets time and how you would see this labeling as haram but really you are speaking to me in modern english now so i dont think you actually believe that. Also you have no basis for such a principle, no where in the history of islam has anyone ever said we should stop labeling things for the sake of ease. Insha allah you understand from this the reasoning behind the labels and the value of having principles in law i.e to ensure consistency and fairness in our judgment. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

Abu Mujahid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 14 April 2007 Status: Offline Points: 264	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abu Mujahid Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 31 July 2007 at 1:36am
	[QUOTE=rami] Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem >According to many salaf'i's [as is also evident by br Abu Mujahid's words above] it is a legal principles in there school of law that any word not used in the time of the prophet is haram to use, period< When we talk about towheed I would say yes >regarding the word Qutb, Allah says people have ranks, rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] being the best of creation that is his rank, i think we can all agree on this basic point<. Agree >So from this we know the prophets have there ranks in Allah's eyes, we also read in the Quran there are people of the left hand, people of the right hand and finaly people of nearness all denoting ranks among the common people. Rasul allah himself said Abu bakr was the best of his ummah followed by Umar then Uthman then Ali by consensus of the ulumah, then we have the 10 granted paradise while still alive....etc, there are many examples i can reference. I think we can also agree with this simple fact< Agree >so now applying this to our current time, we can easily see that all humans on earth today have a rank with Allah some higher than others. I think we can also agree with this< We can agree on this too. >now getting to the labels, the best people alive today by the definition of the word itself as it is used in the Quran and sunnah are called awliyah, other terms include sidiqin. no one can dispute this point i think, or have i lost you there br? *That is fine.* >so we can also deduce that among the awliyah while rising up among there ranks we will eventually reach the best human alive on earth by Allah's estimation, you now have two choices you can constantly seek to explain away this matter every single time it is brought up or like anything else in this world label it for the sake of making life easy for everyone. This is where we differ because we are entering into towheed world >Well the Uluma in there wisdom chose the later and decided to make life easier for the rest of us and label the rank of this individual as Qutb. This is were innovation in this regard was/is hatched out. Who are these ULIMA? Sahaba, Tabi'in?. NO. With their piety if their time they didn't give these names to these people then why this so called ULIMA want to invent new names. Without further discussion Qutb is foriegn name to Islamic belief system. >I can understand your beliefe that we should not use words that where not used in the prophets time and how you would see this labeling as haram but really you are speaking to me in modern english now so i dont think you actually believe that. I'm sure you know al-dalil walmadlul alaihi should match. We are talking about ranking people with names that destroy the very Islamic towheed that Islam want to present to world. Its not any other word ya sheikhana!!. >Also you have no basis for such a principle, no where in the history of islam has anyone ever said we should stop labeling things for the sake of ease,.< We are not talking about words or terminology related to science or social human developments. We are talking about ranking special group of people with special names because of their pity/closeness of Allah. I'm saying these names are new let alone destroy the very foundation of Islamic towheed. If prophet pbuh refuse to use certian word out of respect of towheed then what do u think about Qutb or Qawth?!! Or those who claim something beyond Islamic teaching? >Insha allah you understand from this the reasoning behind the labels and the value of having principles in law i.e to ensure consistency and fairness in our judgment< I understand but you have to understand in clean towhid priciples, the word Qutb which means PILLAR of faith or deen or world or Qawth=Relief Giver has no place in towheedul Islam that prophet of Allah propogated. Beside its lead to a shirk if its not pure shirk. It also give self tazkiya for the claimer. When couple of Sahaba was harrassed by group of Jewish, they said let was ask Iqathah from prophet pbuh on this. Its a matter of helping hand but the prophet pbuh out of respect of towheed and words said, "For me, I can't give Iqathah on such case (rough translation)" He want to teach his companions the word of Iqathah comes from Allah alone when its things Allah alone can do. . And Qowth is in fact Allah the one who give Iqathah. Moroever, it has a dangerous consequence on Aqeedah. Hence using it is Haram and could be shirk if believed. Abu Mujahid Edited by Abu Mujahid
	Islam need true muslims

minuteman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642	Post Options Post Reply Quote minuteman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 September 2007 at 5:48am
	I believe that the saints (Aulia Allah) had some special relation with Allah. That relation was spiritual. I wonder if these Aulia Allah (Mystics, Sufis) used to get any communiction, any news, any signal from Allah?? That is very important to decide the present discussion. It is known that these saints used to show Karamat which are analogous to miracles. Please discuss these angles too. The question is: Does Allah speak to any one of the Ummah now (by any means) ?? Thanks.

minuteman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642	Post Options Post Reply Quote minuteman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 January 2008 at 7:24pm
	I had asked an important question on 22 September 2007. Everything went quiet after that. Was it a too difficult question? I do not know why all went quiet and ignored the question. That was an important question because some of the persons of this Ummah have claimed to have communication from Allah. This subject is related to the Aulia Allah. It should be answered by some one in favor or against it. Also there is another question now. Because it is illegal to use words (names) that were not used by the prophet s.a.w.s. The question is: Is it allowed to use the word Maulvi or Shaikh ul Islam?? I know there is not to be any Pundit or Padre system in Islam. So is it alright to use the word Maulvi for any one?? Where will it lead us? I hope it is not harmful to call some one as a Maulvi. What is a Maulvi? or Maulana? or Hazrat? The supporters of Hadith who are mostly against the Aulia (Saints) of the Ummah should specially please reply. Thanks.

rami Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549	Post Options Post Reply Quote rami Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 January 2008 at 10:40pm
	Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem No one receives revelation from allah, he doesn't communicate with people the way he did with the prophets. But allah guides people by various means otherwise his name would not be al Hadi. Aulia is loosely translated as saints it does not have the same meaning as the english word saint and doest not carry the same connotations with it. for something to be haram in islam it would have to be proven explicitly, as haram and halal are for allah alone, i have yet to see anyone say it is haram to give something that has been identified a name. Eg Fiqh is the rullings, Usul al Fiqh is the principles used to derive the rulings. The word in its entirety as far as i know [i could use a different example to express the same point] did not exist in the time of the prophet it came about after to describe a thing that had no name but clearly existed as it was implicit in the actions of the sahhabah that the law is based on principles which allow it to be applied to different situations but these principles where not explicitly stated by them. Sahih, Hasan, Daif all new labels given to describe grades of ahadith, a science that was developed after the time of the prophet obviously and it required a new naming convention.
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

minuteman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642	Post Options Post Reply Quote minuteman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 January 2008 at 7:24am
	Thanks for the reply. It is believed that there will be no revelation now as it used to be to the prophets. But will there be any other kind of revelation (Wahi) in this age to any one?? That is some kind of Wahi which does not alter any word of The Book (Quran). Does Allah give any news to any one now of the unseen (Ghaib)? Thank you for your patience. A_Azeem is also welcome to discuss this matter as he also knows more than some friends.