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Joined: 24 April 2009
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Points: 60 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Salome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2009 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

believer writes:
honeto- why can the Holy Bible be translated into every language of the world and people still understand the message?

I don't think so, because most of those who even approached me preaching the Bible did not know more than what they have been told by their so and so. They only live by memorizing some phrases to keep them going. When I ask them a basic question about what they are preaching, they say, come to the Bible study, we are just giving the information we are told to deliver. Many did not know that the mother tongue of Jesus, whom they refer as 'Lord' was in fact Aramiac.
 
And, whenever a verse rally goes agaisnt their belief, as there are many, it all of a sudden is said to have hidden meanings other than what it appears to be saying. For example the one that says: hate you brother, or the one that says that I am returning to my God and your God. Or why call me good, there is only ONe that is good, it is God.
I have been in some 'bible studies' where pastor selects what each one will read, and guess which ones he will choose? So don't give me that my friend and besides you only have tanslations from translations of what we now know as the Bible, no original Bible, as there isn't such a thing to go back to in case! The compilation first took place a few centuries after Jesus. So who are we decieving here?
 
Hasan


    Hasan
         
    Bible studies are just the beginning of learning the bible, if you just sit back and listen to what someone else is saying to you that's when radicals develop.
     The Bible and the Qu'ran are ment to be studied,  that is why before I read my Bible I pray for God to give me his wisdom and knowledge while I read. I pray for God to open my eyes, to see new things ( and I also read some of the things I love to read, like the love story " The Song Of Solomon " ).

    Yes I know Jesus spoke Aramaic, but did you know there were two Jesus's in the Bible ?   (Jesus is Greek ) Joshua is Hebrew-   YaHWe- shua is YaHWeH - Jesus is Lord....


   Salome





























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the foresight to know where you're going
and the insight to know when you're going too far.
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Points: 1397 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2009 at 6:04am

The compilation of all the "books" into one Bible occurred in 300AD, but the separate books where in existance and referenced in the earliest church writings and by the earliest church fathers.  The Gospels were written before 100AD.

 

Still you misunderstand that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not partners but are the One True GOD.

 

When you read the Bible you must take into consideration the whole Gospel

 

�hate you brother,�

 

If you do a search on hating your brother Bible verses you will see that the number to the contrary far out way hating your brother.   It is possible that you are unable to understand what was a perfectly good explanation.  This happens when your heart is closed.

 

This simply means to prefer no one in front GOD

 

Matthew 10 

37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

 

1 John 3

14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

 

�I am returning to my God and your God�

 

Yes the 100% human Jesus had a Father, and why wouldn�t the WORD of GOD return to GOD?

 

John 20

 17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

 

�call me good, there is only ONe that is good, it is God.�

 

Have you ever heard of humility- humility is very good trait in the eyes of GOD.  Remember Jesus is on earth to show us literally GOD�s WORD in action - the perfect, sinless example of what GOD wants from us.  We are to humble ourselves to all.

 

Luke 18

 19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good�except God alone.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Points: 60 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Salome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2009 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Originally posted by Salome Salome wrote:

Ah Nur,

   Yes, there is still original text in the world. It is written in Aramaic, Hebrew and in Greek. Ever heard of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS, which consists of roughly about 900 documents, including texts from the Hebrew Bible, discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven caves in and around the Wadi Qumran near the ruins of the ancient settlement of Khirbet Qumran, on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea. The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they include some of the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 C.E., and preserve evidence of considerable diversity of belief and practice within late Second Temple Judaism. They are written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, mostly on parchment, but with some written on papyrus.[1] These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE to 70 CE.[2] The scrolls are most commonly identified with the ancient Jewish sect called the Essenes, but recent scholarship has challenged their association with the scrolls.[3]

   You seem very one sided here, You may want to GOOGLE questions or statements you make, because you are not making correct ones and they coming out as assumptions instead.
   Salome
  


The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered more than 50 years ago, yet till now there are no books published on these Dead Sea Scrolls. Why is that so? I mean there is no attempt to make it into a book so that Jews and Christians could have a chance to read and understand its contents.

Why Salome?

The reason is because publishing it would not serve either the Jews nor the Christians, because the texts of these sacred writings contradicts so much what the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible are teaching. However it confirms what was written in the Quran.





   Well Nur,
  Explain to me then if they haven't written any books on the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Then how can you say " However it confirms what was written in the Quran."   if there is no books written on them where did you get your secret inside information on the contents of the dead sea scrolls.......

  ok, I'm waiting....Wacko

 Salome
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and the insight to know when you're going too far.
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2009 at 4:00pm
believer writes:
honeto- why can the Holy Bible be translated into every language of the world and people still understand the message?

I don't think so, because most of those who even approached me preaching the Bible did not know more than what they have been told by their so and so. They only live by memorizing some phrases to keep them going. When I ask them a basic question about what they are preaching, they say, come to the Bible study, we are just giving the information we are told to deliver. Many did not know that the mother tongue of Jesus, whom they refer as 'Lord' was in fact Aramiac.
 
And, whenever a verse rally goes agaisnt their belief, as there are many, it all of a sudden is said to have hidden meanings other than what it appears to be saying. For example the one that says: hate you brother, or the one that says that I am returning to my God and your God. Or why call me good, there is only ONe that is good, it is God.
I have been in some 'bible studies' where pastor selects what each one will read, and guess which ones he will choose? So don't give me that my friend and besides you only have tanslations from translations of what we now know as the Bible, no original Bible, as there isn't such a thing to go back to in case! The compilation first took place a few centuries after Jesus. So who are we decieving here?
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 07 May 2009 at 4:43pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2009 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/features/scrolls/about.htm
 
The Dead Sea Sect believed that it was the last remnant faithful to the covenant between God and Israel, and that their leader, the Teacher of Righteousness, gave "the last interpretation of the law" on all aspects of life.
 
There would be no need for Mohammad and the Quran if this was the case.
 
believer,
apart from your links which I don't have time to mess with here is a true believer's analogy. It is a grace from God that He has sent the last prophet and the Quran, because without it people would not have chance to worhsip their creator alone as it should be. And they will be worshipping created things as some still do, or assign partnership in godhead to some of His servants.
I don't see anything come close as a religion that brings a person to the worship of His creator alone, and also gives him a guide to how to live a good life here that will gurantee success in the eternal life that will follow this.
According to your and my belief, our Creator will not forgive if you direct your worship toward any other than Him, that will be the highest unjust act.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 07 May 2009 at 3:46pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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http://www.abc.net.au/religion/features/scrolls/about.htm
 
The Dead Sea Sect believed that it was the last remnant faithful to the covenant between God and Israel, and that their leader, the Teacher of Righteousness, gave "the last interpretation of the law" on all aspects of life.
 
There would be no need for Mohammad and the Quran if this was the case.
John 3
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Nur -  not read in a mosque but held in a museum the way the early Christian writings are protected.
 
The Dead Sea Scrolls contain many different types of writings, not all is Scripture from GOD.  The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah is the Isaiah we have today.
 
The Gospel of Barnabas is not included in the New Testatment because it was written  sometime after 1300 AD.  We know this because the Jubilee was celeberated every 5 years until Pope Boniface the Eighth ordered that the jubilee should be observed once every hundred years.
 
'And then through all the world will God be worshipped, and mercy received, insomuch that the year of jubilee, which now cometh every hundred years, shall by the Messiah be reduced to every year in every place.' (The Gospel of Barnabas, p.104).
 
No early church father referenced the Gospel of Barnabas and the earliest known copy is from 1500 AD.
 
honeto- why can the Holy Bible be translated into every language of the world and people still understand the message?


Edited by believer - 07 May 2009 at 8:47am
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More on the Dead Sea Scrolls from the perspective of a Muslim = http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/scrolls.htm

Lawrence Schiffman says regarding Pesher Habakkuk: "It (Pesher Habakkuk) describes the struggle between the Teacher of Righteousness and his opponents - the Man of Lies (also termed the Spouter or Preacher of Lies) and the Wicked Priest. The Spouter is pictured as heading a community. The dispute between the Teacher and the Spouter is seems to have been based on matters of religious interpretation and law. The Wicked Priest is said to have begun his rule in truth but then to have abandoned the way of truth. He then persecutes the Teacher, confronting him on the holiest day of the year, the Day of Atonement" (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 228).

This prophesy also continues in Pesher Psalms: "This text also mentions the familiar dramatis personae: the Teacher of Righteousness, termed 'the priest'; the wicked priest; and the Man of Lies. The Wicked Priest persecuted the Teacher and sought to kill him. The man of lies lead people astray" (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 229). What we begin to see in all of this is the story of the coming of Jesus (peace be upon him), his selection of Judas as one of the apostles, the deviance of Judas from the truth, how a sect of the Jews persecuted Jesus (peace be upon him), how this sect tried to deceive the masses and differed with Jesus (peace be upon him) regarding the truth of God's message, and finally, how they schemed with Judas to kill Jesus (peace be upon him). The Teacher of Righteousness is thus a reference to Jesus (peace be upon him); the "priestly" Messiah. The Wicked Priest is a reference to Judas, and the Spouter of Lies is most likely the leader of the "chief priests and Pharisees" who persecuted Jesus (peace be upon him) and are mentioned so often in the Bible.

Many Christian scholars have snatched up these prophesies in order to prove the validity of their claim that Jesus (peace be upon him) was indeed sent by God and that the Jews are required to follow him. However, they have been thwarted in their attempts by one other quite amazing piece of evidence that the Jews continually manage to refute their claims with, specifically, that the Dead Sea Scrolls claim that the coming messiah will be persecuted and that the Wicked Priest will try to kill him, but that the Wicked Priest will not be successful and that it is he who will receive the fate he wished for the messiah.

In interpreting Psalms 37:32: "The Wicked watches for the righteous, seeking to put him to death," the text states: 'Its interpretation concerns the Wicked Priest who watched out for the Teacher of Righteousness and sought to put him to death'" (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 233). So Judas will try to kill Jesus (peace be upon him).

"The Wicked Priest began his career with the support of the sectarians, but he quickly lost his way and began to transgress in order to increase his wealth" (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 233).

"And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver". (Matthew 26:15)

"Various theories have sought to identify the Teacher with Jesus, claiming that he was executed by the Wicked Priest. However, had that been the case, the text would not have gone on to explain how God took vengeance against the priest by turning him over to the 'ruthless ones of the nations'. And according to this text, the teacher certainly survived the ambush. Indeed the entire passage is an interpretation of Psalms (37:33) where the text continues:

"The Lord will not abandon him (the Righteous), into his hand (the Wicked); He (The Lord) will not let him (the Righteous) be condemned in judgement (by the wicked)." (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, pp. 233-234).

The author goes on to quote Pesher Habakkuk with regard to the Wicked Priest's intentions and his punishment. He says: "Ultimately, however, the Wicked Priest was punished: '.. because of his transgression against the Teacher of Righteousness and the men of his council, God gave him over to the hands of his enemies to afflict him with disease so as to destroy him with mortal suffering because he had acted wickedly against His chosen one'.

The Wicked Priest's enemies tortured him which represents divine punishment for his attacks on the Teacher of Righteousness. The sufferings of the Wicked Priest are even more graphically described in another passage: 'and all his enemies arose and abused him in order for his suffering to be fit punishment for his evil. And they inflicted upon him horrible diseases, and acts of vengeance in the flesh of his body'. But the one who suffered was the Wicked Priest, not the Teacher of Righteousness.

"The enemies of the Wicked Priest, the nation against whom he had made war, are said to have tortured him, so that his life ended in mortal disease and affliction." (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 234). If we read the Gospel of Barnabas, we will find that when Judas came with the Roman troops in order to betray Jesus (peace be upon him), God raised Jesus (peace be upon him) unto Him and saved him. He then made Judas look and even speak like Jesus (peace be upon him) so that the Romans dragged him (Judas) away with them kicking and screaming that he was not Jesus (peace be upon him) but Judas. Even the Apostles were totally bewildered.

After the Romans had their fill afflicting Judas with all manner of abuse and torture, he was finally taken to trial. By now he had totally given up hope of ever being believed. So now when he was asked, "art thou Jesus?" He replied "Thou sayest". In other words, "you will not believe me if I say otherwise, so why fight it any more". His enemies (the Romans) then took him, mocked him, kicked him, cut him, spat on him, humiliated him, and tortured him. Finally, they put him up on the cross. It appears, however, that shortly after they took him down, he disappeared from his tomb (maybe to live in disease and torment and die later on if he was not already dead). The Gospel of Barnabas then goes on to describe how Jesus (peace be upon him) returned to the apostles to tell them of how God had saved him from the hands of the Jews and the Romans and how the traitor (Judas) was taken instead.

This is exactly what the Qur'an has been saying for 1400 years now; that Jesus (peace be upon him) was not forsaken by God to be killed by the conspiracy of the Jews and Judas, but that "it was made to appear so to them":

"But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear you witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Our Lord! We believe in that which You have revealed and we follow him whom You have sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth). And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers"

(Qur'an, Al-'Imran 3:52-54)



Edited by Nur_Ilahi - 06 May 2009 at 6:04pm
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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