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The Layman Has No Madhab. |
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Andalus 
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 Topic: The Layman Has No Madhab.Posted: 31 August 2007 at 10:59pm |
These two pieces are nothing more than the usual "wahabi" drivel which over emphasizes the use of comments from Ibn Taymiyyan and his (not a big surprise) student. The over infatuation and over preoccupation of these two characters is central to the wahbabi thesis. So now, according to this unknown author, Muslims who are "laymen", should follow something other than the only established methods for jurisprudence, which leaves, not surprisingly, the �wahabi� ideals as the "other thing". It is like a �bait and switch� fraud put forth by bad businesses. The wahabis advertise to the unsuspecting that they do not need to follow a madhhab, which, alludes to the weary that we are able to follow nothing (nafs), but when the layman figures out that he cannot reasonably traverse the wilderness of primary tetxts through �ijtihad by naafs� (the advertised product given as bait), the "nothing other than the established madhhabs" become switched with the pseudo methodology of the �wahabis�. Even their clerics need followers. This piece wreaks of the usual �bait and switch� routine, and what makes it even worse is that the entire thesis of the �unknown author� (in terms of scholarship or any authority) is all on the grounds of what Ibn Taymiyyah and his student have to say (as if there is any big surprise). The author also attempts to use a �truth as a means to teach a falsehood�, which refers to the use of quotes from certain ulema and present them out of context from their actual meanings and then allow these quotes to allude to his fallacious conclusion. The huge gaping fallacy in the argument is a non sequitur, large and dubious. The author tries to assert that a layman does not have to follow a madhhab, but uses evidence to show that we do not have to follow any �particular� madhhab. Not following a madhhab is not the same as not following any particular madhhab. In other words, the quotes from the great ulema do not tell us to follow a particular madhhab, but this does not conclude that we not follow any madhhab. Although no Sunni scholar will tell you that you can never use a ruling from another madhhab that is not from the madhhab you follow, this fact remains silent in this juvenile piece as the author �alludes� to an untrue idea about �following a madhhab�.
Edited by Andalus |
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Alwardah
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Posted: 29 August 2007 at 12:40am |
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As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Brother Rami To imply that I was saying Allah and shiva are one just because I say that we don�t need to follow any Madhhab and at the same time we need to refer to scholars What surprised me most is that you say both are not equally correct yet in almost all issues of fiqh we have different opinions and we are told all are correct. (here I am referring to the 4 Madhhabs). You just added to my confusion. Actually I am not confused as I have adapted my own way of seeking knowledge. Alhamdulillah! I know I don�t have to refer to scholars on each and every issue and I also know the importance of referring to scholars. Let me give you an example: If a person died, he left � of his estate to a charitable organisation, and he is survived by a wife, 2 sons and 2 daughters. We don�t need to refer to any scholar on this issue as the full division of inheritance is found in Surah An-Nisa� (4). However if there is a problem, like any step-daughters (his wife�s daughters thru another marriage) step-brothers or step-mother etc then yes we need to refer to the Sunnah and by extension to the scholars and maybe we will need to get a Fatawa before dividing the estate. Let�s say someone, a sister, is studying the Hadith and reads this Hadith: Narrated by Humaid bin 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf (Radhi Allahu Anhu): That in the year he performed Hajj, he heard Mu'awiya bin Abi Sufyan, who was on the pulpit and was taking a tuft of hair from one of his guards, saying, "Where are your religious learned men? I heard Allah's Apostle (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) forbidding this (false hair) and saying, 'The children of Narrated Abu Hurairah (Radhi Allahu Anhu): The Prophet said, "Allah has cursed the lady who artificially lengthens (her or someone else's) hair and the one who gets her hair lengthened and the One who tattoos (herself or someone else) and the one who gets herself tattooed" (Al-Bukhari) This sister uses false hair so does she need to see what the scholars of fiqh are saying about this or stop doing it immediately to prevent Allah�s curse upon her. I would stop immediately without referring to any scholar as we are already told that the most authentic book on Ahadith is Sahih Bukhari. Just two simple examples to show that we can make decisions based on the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah without referring to scholars for a ruling. Regarding the word Sect, this word is understood differently today and that is what I tried to explain. You know in some countries if a Shafie married a Hanafi the Imams call this marriage Zina - not acceptable from an Islamic prospective. During my travels I have come across many brothers and sisters who faced this type of problem. Their parents will not let them marry anyone who is not from their Madhhab. This, brother Rami, is the real world - not what you and I would like it to be. Everything looks great in print but in reality life is very different. To be able to communicate with the masses we need to understand these terms according to their understanding. Maybe I quoted that Hadith incorrectly, so what are the 73 sects that the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) refers to. Maybe the Arabic word is translated incorrectly as sect. Allah knows best. Well brother Rami, I don�t have anything more to add. May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala protect us from our whims and desires and keep our feet firm on His Siratul-Mustaqeem. Ameen! Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu |
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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rami
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Posted: 28 August 2007 at 6:44am |
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
What Brother Abu Mujahid posted is one view and what you posted is another. In my opinion both views although different are correct. Can you outline how this is possible at all? You cant believe la illaha illah llah and la illaha illah shiva at the same time one is correct while the other isnt, the conclusions and arguments made by combining them is false so i dont think it is possible that both arguments are equaly correct. and I meant the same rule will apply to it if a sunni asked a question���refering to your post, that is the only point I understood that, and i pointed out that this is wrong becouse you have the made up context and you have the original and intended context one is conjecture the other original is fact and not subjective. There has to be a proper context, you cant say both are equally correct. I was not attacking your comments or your post. If fact I said: �Masha Allah another opinion���� maybe you don�t know the meaning of Masha Allah. If you say something wrong, like what you said about sects in islam and i correct it with the right understanding according to the ijma of sunni scholars how am i attcking you sister? My reply was not an attack, you perceived it as such. Brother I have said that the only logical step will be to follow a Madhhab or study them all. Why the do the quran and sunnah speak to you?  sorry that was funny the way you put it.look at what i quoted beffore that comment " As Muslims all we need to do is follow the teachings as per the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah." If you read the link i provided which is a basic explanation of the language you are using by a qualified shaykh then you will understand the intended meaning of those words. but unfortunately today the situation is different. The Sunnis are divided into sects and the same with Shia they have their sects too. You don�t hear people say that I am a Sunni Muslim anymore. They don't even say they are Muslims. No today people say I am Hanafi, Shafie or Salafie. How sad? Today people ask me to which Sunni sect do I belong. no it isnt you are dead wrong on this. the proof is the original article look at the names of the shaykhs, al shafii, al hanafi, they used to clearly define which madhhab they followed, how many people do you know today will legally put there madhhab in there last name as is the tradition of all past scholars. You only perceive a devision based on madhhabs and even if it was real Islam is based on ilm not gossip or feelings we dont change the ENTIRE definition of a word based on what YOU perceive as a person. It is rather insulting to here someone label people a sect when clearly they are not. If you even understood the word properly you would never say Sunni's are a sect and this is according to the defanition of the word, sorry for the sturn words but there is no your opinion and my opinion on this point just wrong understanding. Lastely are salafi's a sect the same way shia are a sect....no so why are they even being mentioned in the same grouping. You
know brother Rami you read my response completely out of text. Before
you use statements like �false logic� and �double-edge swords� I advise
you to lighten up a bit and you should take a deep breathe. Youre right on that sister. I don�t need to go to the sites you mentioned. There are thousands of sites criticising the Sunni scholars and how they are deviated just as there are thousands of sites criticising the Wahhabi or Salafi scholars and calling them extremist. well if you had bothered to even go you will see salafis are not mentioned and the topics have mostly nothing to do with them, what i was trying to get you to see was these same quotes or ones similar to them being used in the correct context by real scholars. If you dont want to even see that then how can you judge properly on anything. Fiqh al-Shafi`i or Fiqh al-Sunna? At least click on this and stare at the screen for 10 seconds to see it isnt what you think! Btw just for your information brother Rami, I hold all scholars in high esteem. It wasnt a question of respect since you havnt disrespected any scholars in the past like others have.
May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us for our shortcomings and bless us with useful knowledge. Ameen! Ameen. |
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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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minuteman
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Posted: 27 August 2007 at 11:21pm |
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The first and second post by Abu Mujahid had many erroneous ideas as pointe dout by Rami. The posts are only discouraging any one to follow a scholar or Imam. If the mazhab makes a sect then what about ahle Hadith who talk too much against the mazahib?? Are they not a sect?? Al Wardah has rightly said that we should follow Allah and His messenger. But the problem arises in the approach. Is there any intermediary (teacher) or not?? I am sure that there is no harm if some one relies on an Imam and follows in his footsteps, it makes things easy for him. That matter concerns the Muqallid. Why those who do not have any Imam should object to that?? They can mind their own business. If asked, "Who is your Imam?" they reply, "Our Imam is the prophet himself". That is a clever way of saying thing. Alwardah may please add something to the formula of good guided life. Try to understand about the Sunnah that it first constitutes the actual practice of the Holy prophet and not his words or books of Hadith. The words (sayings found in the books of Hadith) come after the practice of the Holy prophet s.a.w.s. Thanks. |
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Abu Mujahid
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Posted: 27 August 2007 at 1:00pm |
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Sister Alwarda, Thanks for your insights. I couldn't say better to what Ibn al-Humam al-Hanafi says in his Tahrir (as quoted by al-Ma�sumi): "Adhering to a particular Madhab is not obligatory, according to the correct opinion, since nothing becomes obligatory, except that which Allah and His Messenger has commanded; and Allah and His Messenger did not oblige anyone to adhere to the Madhab of any particular individual from the Ummah, to make Taqleed of all that he says and to leave the sayings of everyone else. Surely, the blessed generations passed without obliging anyone to adhere to a particular Madhab" Other Ulima from other school of thought has said similar stand. May Allah reward them all khair and jannah. Forcing people to follow one Madhab is not what Allah has asked us to do. The post and history shows the consequence of glorifying one madhab. Rami and others must be careful for calling people to adopt one madhab for good. Look what Imam Subki has said. You wonder why an Imam to such high ranking among ulima can say such wild claim. Its tassub mamqut for Madhab. Look what Ahanaf extremist has said about Khadar or Issa peace be upon them. Look the result of Iranian ruler who make whole Sunni country into Shia playground. Some can urge these were fringe not the main stream of madhabs. But this sad reality is what is in the books of mut'akhiri madhabs. Abu Mujahid Edited by Abu Mujahid |
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Islam need true muslims
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Alwardah
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Posted: 27 August 2007 at 11:47am |
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As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Brother Rami I think you misunderstood my post. I know you did not compile Hadith and interpret them in a strange way.
What Brother Abu Mujahid posted is one view and what you posted is another. In my opinion both views although different are correct. You said The person who compiled and combined these has created a context for them that isnt correct, if a wahhabi asked a question��and I meant the same rule will apply to it if a sunni asked a question���refering to your post, that is the only point I was trying to make. I was not attacking your comments or your post. If fact I said: �Masha Allah another opinion���� maybe you don�t know the meaning of Masha Allah. Brother I have said that the only logical step will be to follow a Madhhab or study them all. Why the do the quran and sunnah speak to you?
Regarding the sects, yes brother Rami you are correct the Madhhabs were never a sect but unfortunately today the situation is different. The Sunnis are divided into sects and the same with Shia they have their sects too. You don�t hear people say that I am a Sunni Muslim anymore. They don't even say they are Muslims. No today people say I am Hanafi, Shafie or Salafie. How sad? Today people ask me to which Sunni sect do I belong.
Everyone knows that it is Wajib to follow the rulings as presented by scholars who base their rulings on the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah and the four Imams are on the top of the list. Don�t today�s scholars refer to the scholars of yesteryears? This has always being the case throughout history. One generation refering to the generations before them.
You know brother Rami you read my response completely out of text. Before you use statements like �false logic� and �double-edge swords� I advise you to lighten up a bit and you should take a deep breathe.
I don�t need to go to the sites you mentioned. There are thousands of sites criticising the Sunni scholars and how they are deviated just as there are thousands of sites criticising the Wahhabi or Salafi scholars and calling them extremist.
Btw just for your information brother Rami, I hold all scholars in high esteem.
May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us for our shortcomings and bless us with useful knowledge. Ameen!
Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Edited by Alwardah |
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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rami
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Posted: 27 August 2007 at 6:42am |
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Bi ismillahir rahmani raheem
wa alaikum assalam in my opinion the same rules applies to his post as well it all depends on who is asking whom and their level of understanding of the Deen. Sister i havnt compiled any ahdith and interpreted them in a strange way, can you point this out in my post. In fact at the end of my post i Quote the sunni view regarding this matter according to shaykh Faraz Rabani who clearly states there is an ijma on the matter of following one of the mujtahids of islam. i am informing you of the Islamic position not something from my self which is what the person who compiled that post did, this is why this logic applies to him and not what i wrote, lastly all the scholars he quotes are speaking from the position of following a madhhab thus there own words must interpreted in that context which is what i did, think about that carefully sister. As Muslims all we need to do is follow the teachings as per the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah. according to whos understanding sister that is the key question, have you read the following..Fiqh al-Shafi`i or Fiqh al-Sunna?. Only a person who doesnt understand arabic and is simply imitating the arabic language in there speach will say we should simply follow the Qutran and sunnah, do the quran and sunnah speak to you? do you ask them a question and they reply no so then sister "according to who" is what we should be asking ourselfes. There is no statement in either the Glorious Qur'an or the Sunnah which states that we must adhere to one of the four Madhhabs. One the contrary we have evidence that we must beware of dividing ourselves into sects. This is false logic, like the muslim who says the sunnah is not wajib only what is wajib in it is wajib and nothing more. Ok fine that is true but there is a reason for the sunnah a benefit in it similarly there is a benefit and a reason why you should adhere to one and not mix and match this is so you dont confuse your self but as i said this is not wajib upon a person. As shayklh faraz rabani said "We don''t follow individual scholars, but rather the scholarly methodology of Sunni scholarship." regarding your comment about sects, sister i would advise you to properly learn what is considered a sect in islam you have simply brought a new interpretation to the word. Sunni's as a whole are one group or sect shia are another no scholar in the histroy of islam ever understood the four madhhabs to be 4 sects. if you have read some misguided article about making groups i would suggest reading that article again with any shaykh you trust knows the arabic language and ask them if there definitions of a sect and there basic assumptions are correct . The Uluma say wahhabi's are a sect in sunni islam not diferent from it and thus also part of the saved group. we must adhere to one of the four Madhhabs. this is also a double edged sword, there is no wajib to adhere to any one of them but there is a wajib to adhere to rullings only from them. you may like to take shaykh Rabani's advice and look up "following another madhhab" at sunnipath to see the different positions that exist in this ummah regarding this matter. Edited by rami |
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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Alwardah
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Posted: 27 August 2007 at 5:49am |
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As Salamu Alaikum Masha Allah another good point of view. Brother Rami mentions that: �The person who compiled and combined these has created a context for them that isnt correct,� in my opinion the same rules applies to his post as well it all depends on who is asking whom and their level of understanding of the Deen. As Muslims all we need to do is follow the teachings as per the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah. Unless we are blessed with great insight, knowledge and understanding of the Arabic language, the history and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of the Glorious Qur'an, the only logical step is to refer follow one of the Madhhabs or as one member stated study all four Madhhabs. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala states in the Glorious Qur'an to follow and obey His Final Messenger (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) and then to ask the people of knowledge if we do not know. There is no statement in either the Glorious Qur'an or the Sunnah which states that we must adhere to one of the four Madhhabs. One the contrary we have evidence that we must beware of dividing ourselves into sects. Here is another warning from the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) Do not seek knowledge to compete with the scholars, nor to argue with the foolish people, nor to gain control of gatherings; for whoever does that - the Fire, the Fire!" [an authentic Hadith collected by Ibn Maajah, Ibn Hibbaan, and Al-Bayhaqee] May Allah make us from those who call to good and to make us knowledgeable about our religion, and I ask Him to grant us success when we care calling others to Him. Indeed He is able to grant that and He is All-Powerful over that. Ameen! Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu |
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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Abu Mujahid wrote:
��. Audho Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim!