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tell me where I'm wrong
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myahya View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 April 2008 at 3:58am

Ron: If I need to transfer money from one account to another, I write myself a cheque, withdrawing from the account of "Ron the Husband" and depositing it to the credit of "Ron the Father".

If I am right, you are considering two different roles of one existence (Ron): �Ron the husband� and �Ron the father�. Both of them are selected (to be or to be played) by Ron and both of them exist as long as Ron wills. Ron has potentially absolute power to do anything he wills about both roles. No one can generally or essentially and rationally say �husband is Ron� or �father is Ron�. �Husband� and �Father� are two manifestations of Ron. Furthermore, Ron was the same Ron before taking each of the roles �husband� or �father�. 

I should thankfully say, by using this example regarding Jesus (as) (Son is the name you may prefer to use), you have shown the followings:

Jesus (as) was selected by Allah (swt). Jesus (as) exists as long as Allah (swt) wills. Allah (swt) has potentially absolute power to do anything He wills about Jesus (as). No one can say �Jesus (as) is Allah (swt)�. Jesus (as) is one manifestation of Allah (swt). And finally, before and after the birth of Jesus (as), Allah (swt) was exactly the same Allah (He was not changed and nothing was added to or missed of Him).

Ron: The fact that he is praying to himself is ironic but it doesn't prove that they are two different people.

The example shows well that the existence of Allah (swt) is absolutely inherent and independent of Jesus (as) or any other manifestations, creatures or things. However, I didn�t understand how you showed that Jesus (as) praying to himself is a FACT. From what I see, it is neither a fact nor more than an assumption of yours.

Edited by myahya - 21 April 2008 at 4:12am
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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"How come you can give this answer and yet you cannot accept that God did such and such in the thread about "Jesus' new commandment"
 
I am speaking from logic. If you look at the history of the Scriptures from the creation of man until the arrival of the Prophet Jesus, God always gave mankind clear and unquestionable guidance. If you chose to ignore it, that was up to you, but there was no doubt that the message came from God. And there was no doubt as to what God wanted. He made it very clear.
 
In Islam and Judaism we still believe that God has given us clear and unquestionable guidance.  Since we will judged by our deeds on the Day of Judgement we must be responsible for what we have said and done. If we have not followed the Word of God we will be responsible for that. But how can we be held responsible for a doctrine that is ambiguous at best?
 
God is always Just and Fair. If Jesus was God and came to earth to atone for our sins, yet that was not made extremely clear to us by God, then how can we be held accountable for not following this doctrine? Especially since every message from God that came before contradicts the foundation of this doctrine?  God stated very clearly that He is the One and Only God and we shall not associate partners with Him.
 
If all of the Messages and Prophecies sent to earth from God before Jesus were no longer valid and  this was not made extremely clear to mankind, then how could a Just and Merciful God judge us for that?
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Sign*Reader View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

 "If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help."
 
Perhaps the miracle of the birth of Jesus was to show a clear sign that Jesus was a Prophet of God. Just as Moses was able to part the Red Sea. God could have just smited the Egyptians, but He chose another way.
 
 
 
How come you can give this answer and yet you cannot accept that God did such and such in the thread about "Jesus' new commandment"
 

To add my two cents will point to a very important commonality amongst the three recipients of major revelations  Prophets Musa(Moses), Isa (Jesus) and Muhammad (pbut) the elimination of father figures from their lives from the get go. And for a very important reason cuz they would a  a major hassles  in their  line of work. Remember patriarch of prophets Ibrahim(s)'s father was such a pain Wink
In case of Isa(a) there was a major event of immaculate birth that denoted a multiple pronouncements from Allah,
1. A shock to the smart alecky Jews of his time to come to their senses after such a miraculous birth.
2. Termination of  prophet hood line in the Israelites for ever.
3. Last chance for Jews to repent and be good help Jesus in Allah's work.


Edited by Sign*Reader - 18 April 2008 at 10:34pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Angel View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

 "If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help."
 
Perhaps the miracle of the birth of Jesus was to show a clear sign that Jesus was a Prophet of God. Just as Moses was able to part the Red Sea. God could have just smited the Egyptians, but He chose another way.
 
 
 
How come you can give this answer and yet you cannot accept that God did such and such in the thread about "Jesus' new commandment"
 
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2008 at 11:45pm
 "If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help."
 
Perhaps the miracle of the birth of Jesus was to show a clear sign that Jesus was a Prophet of God. Just as Moses was able to part the Red Sea. God could have just smited the Egyptians, but He chose another way.
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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myahya View Drop Down
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Ron, fortunately it seems you are getting closer to what Islam means. In Islam (and so in teachings by ALL Prophets) there is only One Main creator, Allah (swt). As much as I have understood as a Muslim,  infinite creations in worlds are different manifestations of his ability to create from one side, and under his full control of creation from another side. Furthermore �Creator� is only ONE of the names of Allah (swt).

�Ron: If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help.�

Of course, but it doesn�t prove that He has done it this way for us to call Him �Father�.

I have also arguments about your example of Jesus (as) praying to himself and bank account, Enshaa Allah, in another free time.

Edited by myahya - 17 April 2008 at 11:40pm
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Nausheen View Drop Down
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Auzubillahi Minash Shaitan ir Rajeem
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
Joe,
you are most welcome. It is my pleasure if anything from this end is of help to you. Shoot your questions, insha Allah I will try to address them if I have knowledge.
 
Don't think you have little time, and do your best. A humble advice to you, have a pure intention of earning the good pleasure of your Lord in whatever you do ... you will find light in your heart through your deeds.
 
May your Lord be your guide. Ameen!
 
Take care,
nausheen
 
 
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2008 at 7:14pm

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

There is point in debating definitions if they are wrong, not complete or not selected properly leading to wrong results.

There is a point in clarifying definitions so we can communicate effectively, but if we can't agree on a definition then all we can do is avoid using the word.  Words are just arbitrary symbols, after all.

Quote Now let�s go to biological definition of a male.

No, let's not.  God is not a biological creature.  If you think the word "male" necessarily implies biology, then I shouldn't have used the term, because that is (obviously) not what I meant.

Quote If you are proposing that �Father� doesn�t mean a typical father here, but it means �Creator�, then it is a matter of words and literature (semantics) rather than the concept.

Of course God is not a "typical father", but if (by whatever atypical means) he provided the requisite male DNA for Mary to conceive a male child, then by my definition he is the father.  If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help.

But if you choose to define "father" in such a way that it precludes God, then it's pointless to argue the matter.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
 
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
 
- Alice through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll
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