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A muslimah in frustration
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 July 2008 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

This really is getting us nowhere and I don't want hijack the discussion, but let me try just once more.  How can one be said to submit to God's will if one doesn't have a choice?  Surely submission is a choice, i.e. a voluntary subordination of one's own will to God's.
 
This means that a human-bieng has a natural inclination in him/her to believe in a higher-power and Diety, and knows that a Superior bieng exists, even without bieng told to. And there is a natural inclination towards believing in God/Allah.
 
It is external factors that turn a person into an Athiest etc. And the foremost aspect of Islam is believeing in ONE Supreme bieng, Allah. That is wht muslims mean when they say that all babies are born as Muslims. A baby is not aware of Islamic injunctions and Shariah.
 
Also, I woudnt have a problem believing that Allah makes a covenant with us before birth, because we never remember anything that happens in the womb, and forget everything about our birth anyway! So who am I to say what happened/ or did not in the womb? Since I dont remember/know anything from that time. Or before conception/after it.
 
We believe babies are born completely innocent and free of sin.  They remain so until they are able to comprehend right from wrong and reach an age of accountability.
It is outside influence that cause them to turn one way or another.
 
A for submission without choice, babies also submit to the will of their parents, their caregivers, older siblings, in a more physical sense without choosing to do so. They are helpless infants.... 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2008 at 10:12am
Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

Is that your hobby? - Hijacking thread's Question At least you shldn't have done that in women's section ... Confused
I had forgotten that this discussion was in the Women's section.  My apologies.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

This really is getting us nowhere and I don't want hijack the discussion, but let me try just once more.  How can one be said to submit to God's will if one doesn't have a choice?  Surely submission is a choice, i.e. a voluntary subordination of one's own will to God's.
 
This means that a human-bieng has a natural inclination in him/her to believe in a higher-power and Diety, and knows that a Superior bieng exists, even without bieng told to. And there is a natural inclination towards believing in God/Allah.
 
It is external factors that turn a person into an Athiest etc. And the foremost aspect of Islam is believeing in ONE Supreme bieng, Allah. That is wht muslims mean when they say that all babies are born as Muslims. A baby is not aware of Islamic injunctions and Shariah.
 
Also, I woudnt have a problem believing that Allah makes a covenant with us before birth, because we never remember anything that happens in the womb, and forget everything about our birth anyway! So who am I to say what happened/ or did not in the womb? Since I dont remember/know anything from that time. Or before conception/after it.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

This really is getting us nowhere and I don't want hijack the discussion, but let me try just once more.  How can one be said to submit to God's will if one doesn't have a choice?  Surely submission is a choice, i.e. a voluntary subordination of one's own will to God's.
 
Yes, newborn infants are forced to choose as they emerge from the womb.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Points: 4251 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2008 at 9:24pm

Is that your hobby? - Hijacking thread's Question At least you shldn't have done that in women's section ... Confused

It is believed in Islam that Allah took a covanant from all souls after creating them - this is before they come to the realm of this world. Thus all of us are already under this covanant as soon as the soul is breathed into the body - this event takes place at 120 days of gestation.
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2008 at 5:59pm
This really is getting us nowhere and I don't want hijack the discussion, but let me try just once more.  How can one be said to submit to God's will if one doesn't have a choice?  Surely submission is a choice, i.e. a voluntary subordination of one's own will to God's.

Edited by Ron Webb - 10 July 2008 at 6:02pm
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Only if you are fully cognizant as a newborn infant and choose to turn from Islam.
If a newborn is not fully cognizant, how can it be said to have any religion at all?  What does it mean for a newborn to "believe" in Allah?
 
A Muslim is someone who submits to God's Will. It is not a religion but a state of being.  All of the non-human animals on the earth, the angels, the heavens, all submit to God's Will without choosing to do so.
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2008 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Only if you are fully cognizant as a newborn infant and choose to turn from Islam.
If a newborn is not fully cognizant, how can it be said to have any religion at all?  What does it mean for a newborn to "believe" in Allah?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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