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Burning in hell |
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Gulliver 
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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 Topic: Burning in hellPosted: 03 October 2008 at 11:18am |
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"Every soul shall have a taste of death....." That sounds different to 'every soul shall taste death'. Can have a different meaning perhaps.
I realise we are tested by 'good' and 'evil' in life - that we grow through this, faith is tested through the trials of life.
I don't think those verses are implying in any way that we can always wholly and freely give 'consent' to 'sin' - disobedience. Biologically we are predisposed to so many things - characteristics. The whole genetic thing. We don't have a 'choice' about any of that.
Spiritually too perhaps - psychologically, emotionally we can be, are predisposed to certain behaviours, ways of acting or acting out because of the environments in which we are raised - the parental/adult and all other influences.
When you seriously think about it all - you have to go right back to God. For whatever reasons God creates, or permits or allows the 'evil' as well as the 'good' for 'test'ing. It all goes right back to that same God. Forget Adam and Eve. Blame God.
I find the concept of 'free will' difficult to grasp too. Like you saying before, that the person gives his/her 'consent' to the abusive alcoholic, or rapist to be hurt and chooses to be affected by that.
If I could freely choose to 'sin' - then I'd have full knowledge of what that truly meant. I'd know what the real consequences were for myself, the other person and ultimately God. But I don't. We cannot know in this world. You'd have to have the knowledge of the angels at the very least, if not Godlike knowledge.
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do...... "
It's not that black and white Ali. Not for me anyway. But then I am weird - I can't see anything simply ;-) lol
God bless
Minuteman has this little signature on his profile:
"If anyone is bad someone must suffer....... " Does the person suffering choose to suffer because someone is bad ? Does the person who is bad, give whole and free consent to being bad, or are they driven by hurt and anger, in bondage to these negative emotions to the degree they are not free to choose the better way.
Edited by Gulliver - 03 October 2008 at 11:26am |
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Gulliver
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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Posted: 03 October 2008 at 10:48am |
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Hi Ali
I find this all very difficult to accept or believe. This marking system. It would seem fairer if we were all given tests in every kind of enviroment and then given 'marks'.
"Eleanor Roosevelt rightly said that "No one can hurt you without your consent". The guy chose to let his father affect him so it is also his fault. "
I hope you are joking with this statement. That applies only to certain contexts where the person is capable of giving or witholding consent. You are saying that a child who lives with an abusive alcoholic father chooses to be affected by his father's choices and behaviour ?
I'd love to see you sitting with some child, or adult for that matter, who'd been sexually assaulted, suffered the trauma of this and then say to them, "you gave your consent to this hurt and choose to be affected by it." If that's what Eleanor Roosevelt meant, which I very much doubt - then I'd imagine she's reaping what she has sown in the 'hellfire'.
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_ALI_
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Posted: 03 October 2008 at 9:27am |
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Salam
"Is there anyone else who can change what God decide for you and me?"
If God decides I am born having the cra? beaten out of me by a crack addicted father. And I consequently turn to crack. Who's fault is it ? God's ? This business of everything being a 'test' just don't cut the mustard. Way too many variable for 'fair testing' it seems to me. ? Allah says in the Quran
021.035 كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ وَنَبْلُوكُمْ بِالشَّرِّ وَالْخَيْرِ فِتْنَةً وَإِلَيْنَا تُرْجَعُونَ 021.035 Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return. Al-Qur'an, 021.035 (Al-Anbiya [The Prophets])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
But the question is that the guy who has loving parents has an easier test and the guy who got beat up by his father has a difficult test. Why? Like I said, life is a test but the test is not identical for everyone. For some, it is very difficult. But if your test is difficult, your marking will be lenient. If your test is easy, the marking will be strict. For example, a poor guy who is not obligated to pay Zakat (compulsary charity in Islam) gets full marks in Zakat. But a rich guy who has the obligation, for him, the test will be difficult. Likewise, the guy with loving parents and a favourable environment is expected to strive more and the guy who got beat up by his father and grew up in an unfavourable environment, his test gets lenier marking. But the guy who had a lousy father, if he gets misguided then whose fault is it? It is the father's fault but it is also that person's fault. He chose to be misguided. Eleanor Roosevelt rightly said that "No one can hurt you without your consent". The guy chose to let his father affect him so it is also his fault.
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believer
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Joined: 08 January 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1397 |
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Posted: 02 October 2008 at 6:25am |
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Exactly, no man and Jesus is no man!! He is GOD's Word made flesh. Yes there are choices to make- choose eternal life through Jesus or continue to get to GOD on your own. As a sinner I need the leg up through Jesus!!
Maybe where you keep getting confused is in thinking a person can just sin and say oh I'm ok because Jesus has died for my sins. That persons faith is dead- a faith without works is dead.
Another point you are not understanding is that no matter how good a person is they will never be holy enough to be with GOD. Without Jesus we are not worthy, only through His fulfilling the Law are we able to come close to the glory of GOD. Through Jesus we are able to see all of GOD, worthy to stand with GOD.
It's ok honeto if you don't understand or refuse to believe- You will be judged by the Law.
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
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Gulliver
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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Posted: 02 October 2008 at 2:50am |
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I am just wondering. On the human level. Not talking super natural or anything. If a person is born, raised and lives in an abusive environment - alcoholic parents perhaps. Raised, starved of love and affection and knowing only violence in the home. They grow up to imitate what they have learned. Showing 'love' by pouring a bottle of whiskey down their throat and belting someone. Who is really to blame here ? Where does the true guilt for the sin lie and who will 'pay' the consequences of that ? Even psychologists and psychiatrists will look to the context - how or why this person may have become the person they are. They don't say, "it's all your own fault. You deserve to suffer for it yourself." They try and understand what brought the person to this - gain 'knowledge' which may well give the power to undo the past and heal the present. You cannot say that a person is always wholly responsible for all acts of 'sin'. There are so many factors to consider very often and I just wonder where the final buck truly lies.
As Buddy would say, "I'm a modern person....... I won't blame myself. I'll just blame my parents." LOL It's from a comedy sketch. Hilarious.
Seriously though.
"Is there anyone else who can change what God decide for you and me?"
If God decides I am born having the cra? beaten out of me by a crack addicted father. And I consequently turn to crack. Who's fault is it ? God's ? This business of everything being a 'test' just don't cut the mustard. Way too many variable for 'fair testing' it seems to me. ?
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honeto
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Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Posted: 01 October 2008 at 6:52pm |
someone without the knowledge of the Bible may hear that and shrug their shoulder to say may be may be not. Those of us that look into the matter a bit deeper know that the above idea does not go too far, because its source does not agree with that.
For example it says for whom the ransom is paid: 1John 2:1 ".....and not only for ours but also for the sin of the whole world"
Even though this quote of the Bible is clear about the ramsom paid for the sins of whole world, no exceptions mentioned here but many Christians will tell you that your only way to salvation is through Jesus.
Also there are many other passages that speak differently about salvation.
1John2:17...but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
Here is another intersting quote:
Luke16:19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " No one pays for another's sins. Each and everyone will have to give account for our deeds, for that life still goes on, each one with a chance to make choices that will determine the outcome, simple as that, no kidding, no trick or joke about it.
God's Love, Mercy, and Forgiveness is more than enough for the Salvation of those who seek to please and not to offend or disobey God.
Is there anyone else who can change what God decide for you and me?
Hasan
Edited by honeto - 01 October 2008 at 6:57pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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believer
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Posted: 26 September 2008 at 7:41am |
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No the price was paid, it is done. |
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
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_ALI_
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Posted: 24 September 2008 at 10:57pm |
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Salam I am curious to try and understand something. We are of God's spirit. God breathes his spirit into us at our creation. We are made of clay and God's spirit, which gives us our life. The same 'God's spirit' that the angels willing prostrate before when asked. If we are raised at the resurrection to be cast into hell, will God's spirit reside in hell too ? How does that 'work' ?
You are clearly referring to Quran Chap15 v 29
فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِنْ رُوحِي فَقَعُوا لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ ﴿15:29
(15:29) When I have brought him to perfection and breathed of My spirit into him, you should bow down before him all together."
The explanation of this verse is given by Moulana Maududi
"....(when I have) breathed of My spirit into him....": "....(when I have) cast a reflection of My Divine characteristics on him.... " This shows that the soul of tnan implies "life, knowledge, power, will, discretion and other human characteristics in the aggregate. These are in reality a slight reflection of Divine characteristics that has been cast on the human body, which was originally created from dried clay. And it is this Divine reflection on the human body which has raised him to the position of the Vicegerent of Allah and made him that worthy being before whom angels and every earthly thing should bow down.
As a matter of fact, the source of each characteristic of everything is one Divine characteristic or the other, as is borne by a Tradition: `Allah divided Mercy into one hundred parts: then He reserved ninety-nine parts for Himself and sent down the remaining one part to the Earth. It is because of that one part that the creatures show mercy to one another. So much so that it is due to this that an animal refrains from placing the hoof on its young ones." Hence breathing God's spirit in us does not mean that a part or segment of God is inside us. It only means that we have been given some of the characteristics of God. So if a human being burns in hell, that does not mean that God partially burns in hell. Explaining the verse further, Moulana Maududi says
"In this connection one has to be on strict guard against the notion that the possession of a part of any Divine characteristic amounts to the possession of a part of Godhead. This is because Godhead is absolutely beyond the reach of each and every creation."
SOURCE tafheem.net
I only gave the Muslim point of view.
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