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Miracle of The Kaaba
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 October 2009 at 6:34am

Originally posted by Meditations Meditations wrote:

Ka'aba boundaries are between 21�25'21.27"N and 21�25'20.98"N
( My bookmark is  21�25'21.11"N and  39�49'34.28"E )

So the difference is not 0.237 but something around .04 degrees only ,
How much in distance would that be ? I think about 2 miles / 4.4 km ?

I'm not sure where I got my figure from.  I might have just estimated it from a map, so I may have been out by a few minutes, but it doesn't make much difference.  Using your numbers, 21 degrees 25 minutes 21 seconds = 21.4225 degrees.  Subtract that from the Golden Ratio Point of the World latitude of 21.246 degrees and you still have an error of 0.1765 degrees, or about 12 miles (or about four hours by camel Smile).
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Meditations View Drop Down
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Points: 239 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meditations Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2009 at 12:18pm
AsSalam Alaykoum

The movie this post about can be viewed here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLkNR3Cq0Vg

Something that's worth noting about similar information we receive

There should be a clear distinction between what is given to us in a form of revelation, and human efforts

God didn't tell us Ka'aba is at the center of the earth, nor did Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH )
This is a human effort that's subject to being right or wrong

I advice everyone to always check / verify information they receive with any information they receive and especially with regards to such information described as miracles, for I think there're several fake/wrong one's as there're many genuine one's
There's probably some faked by non-muslims, which unfortunately some muslims fail into believing / spreading

But this one seems to be true after verification though

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

The angular distance between the poles is 180 degrees.  If you divide that by phi you get 111.246 degrees, or 21.246 degrees north latitude.  Unfortunately, Mecca is at 21 degrees 29 minutes, or 21.483 degrees.  The difference is 0.237 degrees, which works out to about 16 miles.  The Golden Ratio Point of the World is well outside the boundaries of Mecca.

Sorry.



No need to be sorry for wanting to show the truth Ron,
but it seems Doo-bop and JOEBERAR won't get a laugh

I wonder where you get these coordinates from

My google earth seems to show different readings 

Ka'aba boundaries are between 21�25'21.27"N and 21�25'20.98"N
( My bookmark is  21�25'21.11"N and  39�49'34.28"E )

So the difference is not 0.237 but something around .04 degrees only ,
How much in distance would that be ? I think about 2 miles / 4.4 km ?

This I guess would make the Golden ration point within the boundaries of Makka for sure

But it doesn't stop at this
could Ka'aba itself be the location of the Golden ration point ?

Checking here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude#Degree_length

there's an interesting table that shows that the surface distance per 1� change in latitude differ from one location to the other
being 110.574 km at latittude 0 and 111.694 km at latitude 90 

Geography isn't my cup of tea, but I would assume since we're calculating using latitude lines that are not constant, there's a big possibility that even these 2 miles could be compensated for ?

In the movie, they are showing distance in kilometers , which is 12348.32 and 7631.68
This conforms with the golden ratio

I hope someone who knows maths and geography better than me can shed more light into this

So far, it seems pretty close to me

12:21 : .... For God prevails in His affairs, But most people do not comprehend .

Regards



Edited by Meditations - 14 October 2009 at 12:50pm
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Sign*Reader View Drop Down
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***

Edited by Sign*Reader - 12 October 2009 at 11:05pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:05pm

I apologize for any offense.  To be honest, it never occurred to me that anyone would take my remark as slander.  The Christian tradition (which is my heritage but not my faith) is that we are all sinners, so we accept it as a simple fact, not a slander.  What I meant to say is that Muslims are prone to make the mistake of treating Muhammad as a partner to Allah -- a junior partner, certainly, but a partner nonetheless.  (And I hope it is not considered slanderous to suggest that someone might be mistaken.)

Rather than prolonging this digression, I will start a new discussion, called "Muhammad as a partner with Allah".
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Points: 573 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JOUBERAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 October 2009 at 12:49am
Originally posted by _ALI_ _ALI_ wrote:

Salam Jouberar
My statements are normal, not bolded/coloured/in italics in the following.
What do you define under the terms miracles?
 
All the stories of such 'miracles' were invented wholesale years later by his followers in the Ahadith***
You don't have any proof of that, it is just a baseless allegation. Furthermore, prophet Muhammad never said that you should believe in Islam because of the miracles. The fact remains that as evident from the stories of Moses and Jesus, miracles are never a requirement for a true believer and they never suffice for a non-believer. But still, prophet Muhammad performed many miracles to strengthen the beliefs of Muslims at that time. Even then, Muslim preachers rarely use miracles of the prophet as a basis of calling towards Islam (unlike our Christian brethren)
 
.*** The 'story' of the alleged miracle of the splitting of the moon - a cosmic event of catastrophic significance-
I agree that the splitting of the moon has catastrophic significance, like splitting a sea in two and curing leprosy miraculously. All miracles have catastrophic significances but the possible catastrophies which could follow can also be controlled by God.
was only observed in Arabia and only by Muhammad and his entourage in Mecca.

       None of the great civilizations of the time were able to observe this event nor were they aware of it to report it. Presumably, the moon was eventually put together.
First of, not every civilization was able to view it because when there was night at Arabia, there was day at the other half of the world. And the moon did not remained split the whole night. Still we have reports of the miracles being observed in India.
 

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It is quoted in the book �Muhammad Rasulullah,� by M. Hamidullah:

 

�There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the �Indian king� was piously visited for many centuries.�

The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.

 
These stories of alleged miracles were invented by his followers years after his death to make him appear superhuman and semi divine
No Muslim will ever say that prophet Muhammad was divine. No prophet has ever performed a miracle, instead Allah has performed it through that prophet. Even according to the Bible, Jesus Christ never performed any miracles. God performed them.  
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
despite the fact that both the Quran and other Ahadith firmly deny that Muhammad was able to perform any miracles ***
Quran and hadith firmly deny that all prophets including Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc were unable to perform any miracles. God is the one who performs miracles through his prophets.
Peace
 
 
The amazing and wonderful phenomenon of the splitting of the Moon was a manifest sign of the truth that the Resurrection, of which the Holy Prophet was giving them the news, could take place and that it had approached near at hand. The great sphere of the Moon had split into two distinct parts in front of their very eyes. The two parts had separated and receded so much apart from each other that to the on-lookers one part had appeared on one side of the mountain and the other on the other side of it. Then, in an instant the two had rejoined.

However, there are several problems with this story.

The main problem is that it contradicts the Qur'an itself. In various places Muhammad admitted he could not or did not have to perform miracles to prove himself. When asked to perform miracles his response was:

Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal messenger? Quran 17:93

Moiz Amjad, a scholar that answers questions for Understanding-Islam.com says (here), �I have not yet come across any historical accounts of other nations, which refer to the incident.� He thinks this is �a sign of the promised hour.�

Curiously the same site contradicts itself (here) and claims that in fact a certain king of India observed the splitting of the Moon and he sent his son to Mecca who converted to Islam and upon returning he died in Yemen.

This story is of course another fabrication of Muslims (as proven here). Muslims are fond of fabricating stories to attribute Miracles to their prophet. They do it all the time. One such ridiculous fabrication was the claim that the astronauts who landed on the Moon heard the adhan (Muslim call to prayer) being chanted there. (Please see: Fake Conversions - Neil Armstrong) There are thousands more.

First of all there is no record that any King of India ever visited Muhammad. This is not mentioned in any biography of Muhammad.

Secondly the splitting of the Moon should have been observed by everyone all over the world and not just by one king. Where is the record of such a phenomenon?

Thirdly, assuming that this Indian king saw the splitting of the Moon, how could he interpret this alleged cosmic phenomenon as the sign that there has appeared a new prophet in Mecca? Muslims claim that Indian scriptures contain predictions about the coming of a messenger from Arabia. This is bull. There is no mention of Muhammad in any sacred book of any religion.

Many Muslims are convinced that this phenomenon has indeed happened. They are shown these close-up pictures of the Moon taken by NASA as the evidence and as gullible as they naturally are, they believe without any hesitation.

        
 
These are called Lunar Rilles. Rilles are long and deep gorges resembling canyons. A rille is typically several kilometers wide and hundreds of kilometers in length. Similar formations are found on a number of planets in the solar system, including Mars, Venus, and on a number of moons.
 
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Akhe Abdullah View Drop Down
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Points: 1252 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhe Abdullah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 September 2009 at 11:02pm
He has returned to this topic after being gone for five months, only to slander a Muslim of commiting shirk,Amazing!Humanism!
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_ALI_ View Drop Down
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I never said that. I was only quoting Jouberar. And read my reply. Like I said, no Muslim will ever say that prophet Muhammad was divine. No prophet has ever performed a miracle, instead Allah has performed it through that prophet
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 September 2009 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by _ALI_ _ALI_ wrote:

These stories of alleged miracles were invented by his followers years after his death to make him appear superhuman and semi divine

Indeed, how easily Muslims fall into the sin of Shirk!
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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