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Mormonism per Request from AhmadJoyia

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Angela View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 September 2005 at 8:48am

Valiance is expressed in different ways.  It is the most difficult time in many ways to be Muslim in America.  The Mormons faced many persecutions and executions in their early history, and they are stronger for it.  Sometimes Valiance, is simple teaching the next generation and doing your duties to God.  Thankfully, not all of us are required to be martyrs. 

And thank you for the prayers, I appreciate them very much.

Angie

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herjihad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2005 at 9:24am

Bismillah,

Thank you Angela.  Same to you. We'll pray for you about the infertility also.  If I knew how much childbearing and birth can hurt...

 I've been thinking about religion not being a club.  This is a complicated subject.  Sometimes it seems like people want to make it a club that if you don't follow exactly their point of view, you are excluded.  It's that club membership rules idea thing.

Faith is the basis of my religion.  So I ignore people who tell me that I will be in hell for this or that.  Faith just means that I believe in Allah, SWT, first, as opposed to being an atheist.  Then it means for me believing in the prophethood of Muhammad, pbuh, (which includes the prophets of the Bible.)  And at least I have faith and struggle in my jihad (Child rearing.)

I'm not always valiant, but I still believe and have faith.  Valiance is such a noble thing.  Because I am a human with so many flaws, I concentrate on what my priorities are (kids), and becoming and staying healthy for them as long as Allah, SWT, wills.

In Shah Allah, we will all be bravest when it is most necessary for us.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2005 at 10:51am

Sorry, I've been gone so long.  I changed jobs, and life has been CRAZY ever since.  I popped on quickly to check on things. 

Herjihad.  I'm sorry if that sounded demeaning in any way.  The Go Figures was a statement of like minds.  Not a diminishing of any Muslimah's testimony of Islam.

In fact, I have more respect for a faithful Muslimah, than a Mormon woman who is only still a member because of society and not because of her own faith. 

I believe one should follow their faith and constantly seek the truth.  Religion is not a club, it is so much more and so much depends on it. 

One should be valiant in their faith, no matter what they believe, for if they are not valiant, then they do not truly believe. 

I pray God watches over your family and stays with you Herjihad.  I do not believe he turns away from good and faithful women.  We are not judges and only his judgement counts.

Angela

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herjihad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2005 at 6:26am

Bismillah,

Angela,  after years of seminary, I left the church because of the impossible theological doctrines which are complex and nonsensical.  Now, I thought and prayed about them frequently and deeply.  I did the 24 hour fasts and the three day fasts. 

When I say to you that I am a Muslim woman now, you should not say "go figure", but you should think deeply about why someone who has studied and prayed about both religions would choose Islaam.

I felt Allah, SWT's guidance when I was  a Mormon.  Allah's, SWT's, blessings urged me to believe in Allah despite the complicated, untrue Mormon doctrine.  I know many pious Mormons whom I respect. 

When people don't have an answer for your intellectually based, Allah inspired questions, they say:  Have faith.  (In all religions!)  Faith is my belief in Allah, SWT, not an excuse for unanswered questions.  Just think about it and keep your mind open, and may Allah, SWT, continue to bless you and your family.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2005 at 3:03am

Oops, I just looked over how I worded that one sentence when I read your post.....I knew the Koran was a book....I am normally responding to you at 3am after my work is done at the Hotel I work at....I'm not always very concious...sorry.

As for your question on my sources, I'm not sure if you meant my sources on Abraham or that all religions have a shard of the truth.  If your talking Abraham...that strictly Old Testament stuff on his having to give up his first son and then being asked to sacrifice Issac as a test of his faith.  If you're talking about the "shards" thing...that comes from teachings of church leaders and from common sense.  If all religions have common themes, then it stands to reason, there is a little truth in all religions.  Who has it all right?  Only God knows.

The chosing of a Prophet is God's doing, the revelation of who that prophet is to be is received by the Apostles.  This is a complicated process that requires, prayer, meditation and revelation.  The new prophet is affirmed by the Apostles by their knowing he's the one by the power of the Holy Spirit.  Normally it ends up being the President of the Quorum of the Twelve.  The basis of this is that Peter was the head Apostle and Jesus left him in charge and Paul was the lead Apostle after Peter died, etc.  But, its possible that another could be called if that is who God wanted.  This kinda answers your last question too....its not that he's "elected" as much as affirmed.  Its our belief that if God were to call a 12 year old boy like he did Samuel.  The Apostles would know by the power of the Holy Spirit and would be led to the boy. 

As for what happened to need a new Prophet.  First off was the loss of truths taught by Jesus.  The loss of ordinances he established, the truth about salvation and God's plan for his children.  The nature of Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  What is expected of us, etc.  Also, the fracturing of Churches into endless denominations.  Chritianity is to be one church, not 1000s.  Much like the arguement over whether Shia and Sufi's are muslim.....who is following the truth?  As for why the continued need for Prophets, it because we believe that not all has been restored and revealed.  One of the things lost during the Great Apostacy was the loss of the belief in revelations.  The loss of Prophets, the tongues of God.  Prophets are important because they are our link to God's will.  That's why the continued need for Prophets.  Especially when technology and society are changing.  There is a constant need for reaffirming what our place is and our duties are.

The duties of the Trinity.....Heavenly Father is the ruler and the creator of our spirits, we believe him to have a physical form and a definite gender.  Jesus, was God's only begotten.  In otherwords, he is the only child born of a human mother and God's direct hand through the Holy Spirit.  He is our Savior.  The saying is that through his grace we are saved.  What that means is, he took on the sins of the world, he suffered and died and conquered death.  If he had not conquered death, then there would be no resurrection.  Its more than just dying for our sins, he died that one day we may live eternally.  His death and resurrection are an important part of God's plan.  Also, he is the one who taught us what we need to know, so we can return to heaven.  We were all sent here to get a body.  The only ones who did not get a body are those who sided with Satan.  The Holy Spirit on the other hand, voluntarily gave up his chance to have a body so that he might act as the Voice of God, his divine messanger.

The scriptures you'd want are on that page they are as follows.

Holy Spirit, Mission of  http://scriptures.lds.org/tgh/hlyghstm

Jesus Christ  Moses 4:1-4 and then there's the others http://scriptures.lds.org/tgj/jsschrst  (Now that's alot, I more suggest this)  http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,90-1-10-1,00.html

Heavenly Father  http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,801-1,00.html this is only a tiny piece....the rest is lenghty like the link for Jesus http://scriptures.lds.org/tgg/gdfthrlh

As for prophets clearing up where the scriptures have been scientifically dubious.....yes, they do.  Many of the more vague passages have been cleared up.  For example we are taught not to take creation in absolute literals.....a day to God is not a 24 hour period of time made by man.  So what was 7 days to God????  It very well might be 4 billion years.  There is no confusion between creation and evolution for us.....its all God's work.  The prophets have also clarified passages like 1 Corinthians 15:29 and other such enigmatic statements that were obvious to the authors of the scriptures but have been lost over 2000 years.

Where do man caused illnesses come from?  Man.  Many cancers are attributed to our manufacturing poisons.  Mesothelioma is directly linked to Asbestos.  Anthrax is bioengineered.  Smoking leads to lung cancer.  These are not the creations of God, but the creations of Man.  Inspired by Satan, more than likely.  He will do anything to see us in misery and give us reasons to turn away from God.  He wants to destroy us.  Satan is a very real and very dangerous enemy.  I'm not superstitious, but who but Satan could convince 19 young men that it was a good thing to fly planes into a building.  Certainly it was not God, Allah or any other good and just Being.  The biggest trick Satan ever pulled was making people think he doesn't exist.

As for your last question, I kinda answered it in a previous paragraph.

I hope this helps.  I will not be online again for some time.  It make even be a couple of weeks.  Be patient and I will answer any further questions.    By the way, I also wanted to thank you.  Because you've asked so many "silly" questions, I have been able to look deeper into my own religion.  Its helping me gain a better understanding and answering questions I too had.  Anything that strengthens ones faith is good.  (Oh an a little side note I thought you'd enjoy, my husband said that alot of Ex-mormons become either Jewish or Muslim.....go figure.  )

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2005 at 9:19am

Thanks for your elaborations on my intriguing questions about mormonism.

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

2.  I asked my husband about Ishmael and Mohammed.  We debated, discussed and pondered.  The nearest we can tell is that there have been statements made that each of the Twelve tribes will have their own prophets and their own records which will be revealed in the last days.  Now, given this statement, its possible that the Koran and Mohammed are the prophets of the Tribe of Ishmael?  This is our conclusion and is in no way the doctrine of our church.  I have not found an answer to the churches official stance.

Sis, Quran is not a Prophet but the word of God given to Prophet Mohammad as His divine message to mankind.

Quote   Also, we believe that all religions have a shard of the truth, some more than others, some just misguided or corrupted by the teachings of men.  As for the son Abraham was to sacrifice, it was Issac, but only after he was already made to sacrifice his older son by casting him and his mother out.  Abraham was a man who had been tested greatly in his life.

And whats your source of Info?

Quote

3.  Joseph was given his Patriarchal Blessing by his father Jacob/Israel before he was carried to Egypt, this is why his brothers became jealous and sold him.  In his blessing, Israel promised him his brothers would bow before him, a sign he would be Prophet.  Now, I'm not sure whether that meant that Israel passed on the mantle to Joseph or that he was able to do the things because it was his birthright? 

Is there anything called "birthright" in the kingdom of God? Its only God who chooses His prophets. Isn't it? Similarly, I don't think there is anything called as "passing of mantle" from one human to another. The only one who appointed prophets is God and God alone. For example, if you believe Joseph Smith got it from God all by himself, then why this is not possible for the rest of the generations after him? Why there is a need for meeting of elders of the church to decide and select among themselves who is going to be the next prophet? Aren't they all are humans and hence can err? 

Quote

I have to say, as a convert of just over a year, many of the deeper questions you ask of me are too deep doctrinally for me to answer you with any kind of accuracy or certainty.  I am trying so you must be patient.

My dear Sis, that is perfectly ok with me. Take your time as there is no rush. I hope you would bear me of my sometime seemingly silly questions.

Quote

4.  Yes, the Prophets are tested.  They suffer tragedy, they are asked to sacrifice and knowledge is withheld whenever their faith and obedience needs tested.  Whatever of my statements led you to think otherwise was either a mistake in understanding or I did not make myself clear.  We believe that before the war in heaven between good and evil that we existed and lived with God, or to us Heavenly Father.  He offered us a chance to go to earth, were a veil would be pulled over our eyes and we would not know what came before.  We are to obey the commandments God has given us and prove ourselves worthy to remain with him after the Resurrection.  The Prophets are our only link to Heavenly Father, our only way to know his commandments.  That is how they differ from others who just get inspiration. 

Sis, as you already mentioned elsewhere on this forum, about the need for the new prophet, what do you think that has been corrupted in the christian doctrine that God sent Joseph Smith. On the more what went wrong with the doctrine of Joseph Smith that God is yet sending a continuous chain of Prophets one after another. Specifically speaking, I mean to ask about their purpose?

Quote

As for the Duties of the Trinity, we believe in three separate beings, not a "trinity" as the Catholics believe. 

O, I see. Can you put some words to explain this concept in little more detail. I shall appreciate it.

Quote

 But, I think it best you just read for yourself what our Book of Moses says on it.

http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/contents

Though I did look at this link, but since its so lengthy a document, I really couldn't go over it to find this specific answer about the roles of different entities of Trinity. Can you provide some verses that could ease my limitation. However, I do see the very first page relating the story of interaction of God with Moses. Don't you think, this story is in direct contrast with the Biblical account of the same incident? Then who shall we believe what is truth?

Quote 5.  There have been many miracles preformed, I don't know them all.  The closest I came to finding an example is the story of Brother Fordham.  He was stricken in the Malaria epidemic I mentioned before.  He was dying and there was no hope.  Joseph knelt by his bed and prayed and the man was healed.  To be honest, there are no Mormon Lazarus stories.  If you looking for some absolute proof, I have no proverbial smoking gun for you.

Sis, though I am not looking for "smoking gun", but the assumption is that if someone claims to have a unique and exclusive access to God, then, if not physical, shouldn't he correct the spiritual beliefs of the people who went astray? That is to say, that should he not be either correcting or defending Bible where ever it has has been proved sceintifically dubious. Faith is one thing, but facts found through scientific analysis is what the need of the hour is. Don't you agree with me?

Quote Does this mean that all illness is God's will?  No, there are things that are the result of the actions of men.  There for, finding a cure for a disease is not a sin. 

I really couldn't understand your logic over here when you say "No" to your question "Does this mean that all illness is God's will?" So, does it mean there is some illness which is the result of the actions of men but is not through the "Will" of God? Then from where does this illness comes from? From Satan etc?

Quote

 7.  Okay, here's one of those questions that you asked that are kinda out of my league.  I found a good break down on a NON-mormon site, its a little lenghty, but I think it will keep from me having to keep answering questions about the priesthood.  Since I am a woman and don't hold the priesthood and have not had the classes, I really can't answer those questions very well.  I would suggest you just read this site.  I am sorry its quite lengthy, but it will answer most questions you will have about the structure of our clergy.

http://www.answers.com/topic/priesthood-mormonism

After going through the info from this website, it seems that an elaborative system of decourums have been formulated to deal with all kind of issues that can be percieved by human imagination. Not much different, I think, from Catholics except that the ranks and appointments have different names or duties. But the important question to ask is that Is this all have divine origin or from human managerial skills. Hence the question remains unanswered that why people need to select/elect the next prophet and not the God Himself?

Thanks anyway for your patience in replies.

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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2005 at 2:11am

Sorry it took so long.  This is the first I've been able to comeback to the site and answer your questions.

1.  Ether was the last Prophet of the Jaredites, a group of people who were builders at the Tower of Babel.  The Book of Ether is a section of the Book of Mormon.  It tells the story of how and where these people went and of their destruction because of their wickedness.

 

2.  I asked my husband about Ishmael and Mohammed.  We debated, discussed and pondered.  The nearest we can tell is that there have been statements made that each of the Twelve tribes will have their own prophets and their own records which will be revealed in the last days.  Now, given this statement, its possible that the Koran and Mohammed are the prophets of the Tribe of Ishmael?  This is our conclusion and is in no way the doctrine of our church.  I have not found an answer to the churches official stance.  Also, we believe that all religions have a shard of the truth, some more than others, some just misguided or corrupted by the teachings of men.  As for the son Abraham was to sacrifice, it was Issac, but only after he was already made to sacrifice his older son by casting him and his mother out.  Abraham was a man who had been tested greatly in his life.

3.  Joseph was given his Patriarchal Blessing by his father Jacob/Israel before he was carried to Egypt, this is why his brothers became jealous and sold him.  In his blessing, Israel promised him his brothers would bow before him, a sign he would be Prophet.  Now, I'm not sure whether that meant that Israel passed on the mantle to Joseph or that he was able to do the things because it was his birthright? 

I have to say, as a convert of just over a year, many of the deeper questions you ask of me are too deep doctrinally for me to answer you with any kind of accuracy or certainty.  I am trying so you must be patient.

4.  Yes, the Prophets are tested.  They suffer tragedy, they are asked to sacrifice and knowledge is withheld whenever their faith and obedience needs tested.  Whatever of my statements led you to think otherwise was either a mistake in understanding or I did not make myself clear.  We believe that before the war in heaven between good and evil that we existed and lived with God, or to us Heavenly Father.  He offered us a chance to go to earth, were a veil would be pulled over our eyes and we would not know what came before.  We are to obey the commandments God has given us and prove ourselves worthy to remain with him after the Resurrection.  The Prophets are our only link to Heavenly Father, our only way to know his commandments.  That is how they differ from others who just get inspiration. 

As for the Duties of the Trinity, we believe in three separate beings, not a "trinity" as the Catholics believe.  But, I think it best you just read for yourself what our Book of Moses says on it.

http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/contents

5.  There have been many miracles preformed, I don't know them all.  The closest I came to finding an example is the story of Brother Fordham.  He was stricken in the Malaria epidemic I mentioned before.  He was dying and there was no hope.  Joseph knelt by his bed and prayed and the man was healed.  To be honest, there are no Mormon Lazarus stories.  If you looking for some absolute proof, I have no proverbial smoking gun for you.

6.  Jesus healed the faithful with his miracles.  Their faith in him is what lifted their burdens.  They passed their tests by believing in him.  The more faith one has, the better one faces the hardships put before you, the greater the blessings when all is said and done.  Does this mean that all illness is God's will?  No, there are things that are the result of the actions of men.  There for, finding a cure for a disease is not a sin.  And the noble cause of relieving others suffering is an act of love that is very much in the teachings of Christ.  However the big drug companies that make medicines so expensive that people cannot afford them....well, they are just evil.  That is my PERSONAL opinion and not my religious opinion.  I hate big drug companies and find how they bleed sick people of their money disgusting.  (I was going to rant about the AIDS epidemic and greed, but that's another forum)

7.  Okay, here's one of those questions that you asked that are kinda out of my league.  I found a good break down on a NON-mormon site, its a little lenghty, but I think it will keep from me having to keep answering questions about the priesthood.  Since I am a woman and don't hold the priesthood and have not had the classes, I really can't answer those questions very well.  I would suggest you just read this site.  I am sorry its quite lengthy, but it will answer most questions you will have about the structure of our clergy.

http://www.answers.com/topic/priesthood-mormonism

 

I apologize if I missed anything.  The link for the Book of Moses can also lead you to our churches official website, there are all of our scriptures as well as access for speeches and articles written by the Church's leaders.  I highly suggest the two proclaimations.  The Living Christ and Proclaimation to the World.  I will be losing access on a regular basis as of tomorrow.  So if I'm slow to respond, again I'm sorry.

Angie

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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2005 at 11:02pm

I just popped in quickly to check this forum.  Today is my husband's birthday and we're going to be gone for a couple of days in celebration.  If I can, I'll answer your questions tomorrow.  But, I promise to get to them as quickly and respectfully as possible.  Have a good weekend.

Angie

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