What is Islam?

schmikbob,

Your translation of my question was wrong. In fact the translation should read: We are not in a position to comment on anything about the book and �its author� yet, because we are not fully aware of what we are commenting about. Before we can open our mouths, we should know at least the basics about what we are talking about, and therefore it is better that we get more information.

Since you have threatened that you were �through with this dialogue until ...�, I better forget about gathering more information about the book �and its author�. What you wanted to know was �what is so miraculous about the word �smoke� mentioned in 14:11 of the Quran�. Let me admit that I have nothing else to add to whatever some of the world-renowned scientists said about it. In fact it was these scientists were the ones who concluded that the word �smoke� in the Quran is a miracle. Some of them further indicated that the Quran must be from our Lord, THE ALMIGHTY. Let me quote some of them, though these may be familiar to you and were quoted over and over again:

For an ordinary person like me, after going through their explanations, what else should I wait for to conclude that the contents of the Quran on the matter under discussion are miraculous, especially when no other person with a comparative standing with these scientists disagreed with them? Arguments from me (and may be from you, too), however colourful they may be, will fall on deaf ears. We can keep on arguing until the cows come home, but nobody will pay any attention.

Here I would express my understanding of the Quran.

1. It is not a textbook. If it were, it would have run into hundreds of volumes. It is meant to be a SIGN from The God, THE ALMIGHTY.

2. It is meant to be for people, until the end of time. The following verses say so:

38:87 - This [divine writ], behold, is no less than a reminder to all the worlds

68:52 - [Be patient:] for this is nought else but a reminder [from God] to all mankind.

3. There won�t be any more periodical messages or messengers from God. The last messenger, who came with the final messages that are meant for mankind until the end of time, came centuries ago. But there are a number of so-called messages and/or messengers claimed to be inspired or sent by god. How are we to differentiate the true messages from The God from the others? To help us recognise them, HE has made the Quran a miracle, by building in universal truths that were realised centuries later, and that would be realised by future generations. We can be assured that no other so-called messages would contain these safety features. These safety features are the ones that enabled the scientists to recognise the Quran as the one that is from The God, THE ALMIGHTY. There are numerous such safety measures; for example there are mentions about ants, bees, birds, camels, clouds, light, darkness, lightning, moon, sun, mountains, night, day, spider, stars, planets, seas, growing of seeds, etc. etc. Things that are mentioned in the Quran about these things may not be sufficient for ordinary people to learn anything about them; for those whom God has blessed with investigative minds will be able to recognise the given cues, advance themselves and enlighten the world. Eventually, that will in turn help the people at large to realise that the Quran is from God.

Let me elaborate a little on this: In the Quran, it is stated:

29:41 The parable of those who take [beings or forces] other than God for their protectors is that of the spider which makes for itself a house: for, behold, the frailest of all houses is the spiders house. Could they but understand this!

For an ordinary person, this verse may not contain any significant information. But the scientist who came across this verse began to wonder why there is mention of the spider�s web in a religious book? He investigated further and found out that the thread from a spider�s web is the frailest. When an ordinary person comes to know about it, he would realise that such information was not known more than 1500 years ago, and therefore, the Quran must be from God. We will appreciate this fact when we know that an illiterate person could not have written this Quran 1500 years ago and therefore we will conclude that every one of about 99000 words in the Quran is a miracle, and that the Quran itself is a miracle.

Regards,

Ansari

Schmikbob,

When you said that I have already made up my mind, that is actually the fact and I do not wish to deny it. But as I said in my earlier post �I (still) begin to wonder if what you said about someone�s �mental gymnastics�, trying to attribute special significance to the word �smoke� could be right. I still hold on to it.

Now, let me go through some of the things you have mentioned in your latest post.

Let me borrow one of your phrases: �OK, lets move very slowly� as we are �trying to determine if the proponents of science in the Quran are simply trying on a new polemic for size�. You accept the fact that Quran was recited by Muhammad, and that somebody else had written it down. About the person who recited the Quran, you said that he may have been epileptic. After discarding all those adjectives I have suggested, you have chosen to believe him to be an epileptic. I am sure you have chosen this word very carefully; so I have to be careful in considering it

You were expressing your thought as an epileptic Muhammad recited the Quran and a scribe or a number of scribes had written it down. I can follow your thought up to that point. Then I stop to think:

1.      An epileptic Muhammad recited the Quran and there were scribes who were ready to be with him for 23 years (That is the time span during which he recited (received) the Quran). Do you believe its possibility?

2.         During these 23 years he recited 6,226 verses every one of which is free of grammar mistakes. At least that is the �mental gymnastics� by some, but those critics of the Quran who scrutinised the Quran claimed that they found 13 grammar mistakes which was vehemently refuted by Arabic linguistic scholars. Let�s forget about the linguistic scholars. Let�s suppose the critics were right. Then, we have to admit that an �epileptic Muhammad� who was illiterate had recited 6,226 verses (of his own) during 23 years with 13 grammatical errors! Unbelievable! Don�t you think so?

3.         When you had difficulty in finding a word to describe the Muhammad in question, I decided to find a suitable one on my own. By checking through the internet, I found the following just in one page. There were thousands of such pages. On this one page alone, hundreds of people who were considered to be assets to human race and who themselves were not Muslims had said a lot about this Muhammad. Let�s see what some of them said about him:

1. the most influential person in all history

2. ... an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were likewise honest and upright men

.

3. Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire ...

4. .. He must be called the Savior of Humanity...if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness.

5. There is Muhammad the Prophet. There is Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint. .

..

6. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement ..., the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. .

.. 

7. one man single handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades.

8 ... when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes man instinctively a brother."

9. "The league of nations founded by the prophet of Islam put the principle of international unity and human brotherhood on such universal foundations as to show candle to other nations. ... the fact is that no nation of the world can show a parallel to what Islam has done towards the realization of the idea of the League of Nations."

10. the honor of the Prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtues; and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." ...

These are just the tip of an ice berg.

Where is your position among these great souls? All that you could say about Prophet Muhammad was that he was an �epileptic�. Feel like reconsidering?

Regards,

Ansari

Schmikbob,

After reading through your posts, I begin to wonder if what you said about someone�s �mental gymnastics�, trying to attribute special significance to the word �smoke� could be right. But before I subscribe to your thought, I want to get further insight into your thinking. I believe that the word �smoke� we are talking about is found in the Quran 41:11. So, before I can assume if the �mental gymnastics� theory is correct, I hope you can clarify some of my doubts, namely:

1. Since the word is taken from the Quran, who do you think the author of this Quran is? I am sure you won�t agree it is Allah. Then the obvious answer is Mohamed. Or, do you think it could be someone else?

2. If you feel it is the latter, what kind of person was he? What do you know about him? Was he a liar, a magician, a lunatic, a tyrant, a terrorist etc. etc.? What kind of background did he live in? What is about his ancestors?

3. When Quran talked about prophets, some critics of the Quran said that Mohamed �learned� about these prophets from the earlier scriptures. In this case, do you believe that he had some sort of �education� about nature, astronomy, zoology, physics etc. etc. from previous scriptures or from anyone else?

4. How many other seventh century illiterate Mohameds, who talked about �smokes� �revolving stars�, �the moon following the sun�, �the star of piercing brightness� �the sky full of great constellations�, �the expanding universe� etc. etc. , did you learn about? How many such Mohameds lived before the 7^th century A.D. (not including the prophets as we are not considering the Mohamed in question a prophet. If Mohamed is not a prophet, comparing him with prophets is not fair. Please note Question 3 above is a separate issue).Were there any other such Mohameds for the next 10 centuries after his death?

Answers to these questions are vital to see if somebody was doing �mental gymnastics�. Honest answers to these questions will also enlighten us to know him -  if he was one of many that existed, if he was talking something sensible, if so, from where did he get that information etc. Then we will also be able to consider whether there is anything miraculous about the Quran.

Regards,

Ansari