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Topic ClosedFGM. Part deux.

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rami View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: FGM. Part deux.
    Posted: 13 October 2005 at 1:25pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Begbie this is your second warning, once a topic has been closed it is no longer up for discussion!

If i have to warn you again you will be banned.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

There is a big difference.� You are talking the difference between circumcision and castration.� There is a HUGE difference here.
How did castration come into this ?

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

And there is no real medical reason for circumcision either.� Yet, my son, God willing, if he is ever born, will be circumcised.� Why? because God commanded it.�
It seems god commanded a lot of things but FGM was certainly not one of them. Can you provide a verse from any religious book Torah, koran, Bible that commands FGM ?   

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Not every thing done has to be for medical reasons. There are many reasons people do things, cultural, aesthetic, religious, or mental illness. There are practices around the world that include piercings, ritual tattoos, ritual scaring, filing down the teeth to a straight line so as to remove an visage of an animal appearance, binding of feet to make them smaller and more attractive.� You really cannot make sense of every cultural practice based off of medical praticality.
I can't make much sense of any of them but each to their own.

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

FGM is a practice that will fade with increased education in those areas.
Not while "we" have apologetics allowing the practice to continue and the condoning of it from "scholars".   

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Women in those areas are starting to stand up for themselves and fight to make the changes.
What, you mean women (young girls actually) in Birmingham, England that are packed off to Egypt to have the procedure done on them against their will ?

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

They are banding together to stop the abuse and rapes.� They have to do it, no one else can force it on them.
It could be helped if people would stop providing the apologetics (as you seem to do) to allow it to continue.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 12:00pm

Originally posted by Begbie Begbie wrote:

You can argue about the degree of mutilation all you like, the only real difference is in the semantics.     

There is a big difference.  You are talking the difference between circumcision and castration.  There is a HUGE difference here. 

And there is no real medical reason for circumcision either.  Yet, my son, God willing, if he is ever born, will be circumcised.  Why? because God commanded it. 

Not every thing done has to be for medical reasons.

There are many reasons people do things, cultural, aesthetic, religious, or mental illness. 

There are practices around the world that include piercings, ritual tattoos, ritual scaring, filing down the teeth to a straight line so as to remove an visage of an animal appearance, binding of feet to make them smaller and more attractive.  You really cannot make sense of every cultural practice based off of medical praticality.

FGM is a practice that will fade with increased education in those areas.  Women in those areas are starting to stand up for themselves and fight to make the changes.  They are banding together to stop the abuse and rapes.  They have to do it, no one else can force it on them. 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

There are stark differences between circumcision and mutilation, you'll need to understand the difference to accurately and knowledgeably discuss this�subject.
You can argue about the degree of mutilation all you like, the only real difference is in the semantics.    

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Begbie, as a woman I am opposed to�FGM, but you need to stop coming in here and insulting the others.
I don't think I insulted anybody other than qaradawi. And by the same token, there is no need for such a condescending tone.

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Try making an informed arguement filled with medical citations and informed respectful religious arguements.
I did, on another thread. There is no medical purpose for FGM.

Regards,

Francis Begbie.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 10:30am

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm

This site explains the problem quite well.  I believe for most women, a circumcision of the clitoral hood is not the issue.  It is the complete clitoridectomey or excision that becomes the issue.  That practice is harmful to the woman. Also there are other forms of FGM that are even more radical that include surgically sealing off the area by sewing together the labia, only leaving a small opening for urine to escape.  These practices allow for infections to set in and cause problems in many other facets.  They totally prevent a woman from enjoying what is a very sacred act with her husband. 

This practice is wrongly thought to be an islamic phenomenon but is also practiced by non Judeo Christian groups as well as ethic groups later converted to Judeo Christian religions, ie Judism, Christianity and Islam.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm#a11

For a woman or even an older girl to make the decision to be circumcised would not be an issue, but for a young child to be held down and butchered with a piece of glass is not what God would want done to his creations.  There are stark differences between circumcision and mutilation, you'll need to understand the difference to accurately and knowledgeably discuss this subject.

Begbie, as a woman I am opposed to FGM, but you need to stop coming in here and insulting the others.  Try making an informed arguement filled with medical citations and informed respectful religious arguements.  This is a subject that is very much opinion based on many levels and everyone has a right to their own opinion.  Please do get insulting when someone posts an opinion that is opposing your opinion.

Angela 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 8:12am
Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

regarding labaling female circumcision as FGM, this is ignorance on the part of all those involved as not one of them could even describe the procedure or what was harmfull and why it is mutilation.
I am sure most people with access to the internet are capable of doing their own research on it. Amnesty International has plenty of material on it.


Originally posted by rami rami wrote:


mutilation.

Dictionary.com

1:To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2:To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue.
3:To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

female circumcision is non of the above, like male circumcision it is a medical procedure.
That is just your opinion. There are many, many women who have had this "medical procedure" performed who would differ with you. In any event, from dictionary.com, FGM would certainly fall into point number 3. You could argue that getting a tattoo is a form of mutilation and I believe that is "haram" in islam and yet, slicing young girls genitalia is allowed.


Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

regarding female circumcision, asuming Urf is why a people practice this you would have to show the harm in it for it to be made haram.
These cultural practices such as FGM do great harm. There is no reason for doing it other than pandering to the whims of men. Take another quote from qaradawi to see the intent behind this procedure;

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

FGM occurs in some tribes in africa, this is the act that most westerners are trying to abolish dont confuse this with female circumcision the two are not the same.
That is your opinion again. Why don't we get the opinion of a woman who has undergone such a "procedure" I'm sure most will differ from yours.


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