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Almostanbit View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 June 2005 at 1:50pm
Imam Ali Was kept Behind  As a governer Becaous of the Monafikeen
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Abu Hadi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abu Hadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2005 at 4:28pm

Salams to jello and others,

InShah Allah, jello is feeling better.

I have a source in Lebanon who is an Alim (scholar). I will email him tonight and should have an answer soon regarding the Commander of the Tabuk expedition. I will also ask if he knows who is recorded in the well know sources such as Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, Ibn Hanbal, etc.

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Ali Zaki View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2005 at 7:58am

Salam Jello,

I'm sorry to hear you are not feeling well. May Allah preserve and heal you.

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite sure where we are going with this Tabuk expidition. I will list some Shia sources of information, as requested.

http://al-islam.org/lifeprophet/21.htm

http://al-islam.org/restatement/34.htm

(the above link also quotes British and European Historians, Like Sir John Glubb and others. Of course, these secular historians are not considered "Saheeh", however, we accept their version of historical events in this matter because they agree with other sources which we know to be Saheeh)

Here are some more Islamic Web Sources

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/27_ali _bin_talib.htm

http://www.ptv.com.pk/webptv/PBUH-adetail21.asp

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2005 at 6:26am

Salam

I am not feeling well for the time being, so I will make my reply short...

Mister Abu Hadi said that he had not been able to find reliable sources about the Tabuk expedition from the Internet. Could I ask where are the reliable Saheeh Shia narrations about the various things that occured during that expedition (and to stay bogged down with this incident only) and of other military assignments the Prophet led or instructed the Muslims to participate in.

Of course, there may be "Arabic only" books on this matter, but Insha Allah I will ask an Arab brother to look into them, if the books are given in this respect...

Sorry that I was unable to answer the other issues for the time being, but I suppose it is important for us to have the Saheeh history as seen by Shia narrators, etc., before we say any other thing.

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Ali Zaki View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2005 at 7:31am

Salam ala kum to Jello and others,

"saying that the Prophet (SAW) was with them and therefore they did not need a leader is contradictory of course, since the Prophet always appointed someone as leader of the expedition even when he was present"

I think we are getting a little too deep into symantics here. When I say that the prophet was their leader, I mean in the absolute sense of the "Imamate". In any organization that has ever existed, authority is delegated downward by neccesity. If you have a particular point you would like to make regarding WHO was delegated for WHAT leadership position during this expedition then please enlighten us.

REGARDING OTHER COMPANIONS AND DELEGATION VS. " SHURA".

I think I know where you're going with your questions, but I'll wait to you take us there to make any detailed comments. In general, however, I would like to say that our position is not that everything was decided by the Prophet alone, without consulation with others. Our position is also not that there were not other pious, knowledgabe and corageous Muslims among the companions that were given limited authority during the limetime of the Prophet(a.s.). On the other hand, the Holy Quran tells us that we must make the Prophet the judge in our affairs,

" "By your Lord, they can have no faith until they make you (Prophet Muhammad) a judge in all disputes between them and find in themselves no resistance against your decision and accept it with full submission." 4:65

In conclusion, my point is not to say that the Holy Messenger (a.s.) was a dictator (God forbid), or that he only delegated authority to Imam Ali (a.s.). The point is that if the Quran is our guide, and the Holy Messenger is our judge in all disputes, then we must follow his judgements and disregard our own personal opinions and wishes.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abu Hadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2005 at 3:08am

Salams,

I have also been doing some research online regarding the expedition of Tabuk. I have not been able to find information from any reliable source regarding the placement of commanders in certain positions and who fulfilled those positions. I agree with br. jello that it was the practice of the Prophet(p.b.u.h) to appoint generals, commanders, leuitenants, etc. in military campaigns as is done in modern military structures. I am not familiar with sources where these positions are recorded, except when the Prophet(p.b.u.h) wanted to distinguish one of the companions by praising them.

A General point regarding the Companions (Sahaba) from the Jaafari perspective

There is an obvious point here that I believe is being lost in the discussion. There were many of the Companions(Sahaba) who had meritous qualities worthy of being praised. They were the first people who accepted the religion of Islam and supported the Prophet(p.b.u.h) and made all sorts of sacrifices and endured hardship for many years for the cause of Al Islam. Amoung this group is Abu Bakr,  As Siddiq, Umar Al Khattib, Jafar At Tayyar, Sommayya(the first women martyr),  As Shahhid Hamza AssadAllah, Abu Talib, father of Imam Ali, Imam Ali, Sayyida Khaddija, who was the first women to accept Islam,  etc. All this is well known and not disputed.

All of the above muslims had special qualities. But amoung this group there was one who was unique, in the following ways

- None of the other companions were designated as 'mawla' in a general sense, as Imam Ali was on the day of Ghadeer

- None of the other companions above were considered 'purified', i.e. granted immunity from error (Hadith Qisa)

- None of the other above companions had their authority joined with the authority of the Prophet himself(p.b.u.h)(You are to me as Haron was to Musa... and other hadith)

- None of the other companions had as many (in terms of quantity and quality) authentic hadith narrated in their praise as Imam Ali(a.s.). When I say authentic hadith, I mean hadith narrated from multiple independent lines of transmission, and the chain of narrators does not include anyone who was know to fabricate fake hadith.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:49pm

Salaam

Well, saying that the Prophet (SAW) was with them and therefore they did not need a leader is contradictory of course, since the Prophet always appointed someone as leader of the expedition even when he was present. The issue of "standard bearer" was not limited only to the time when the battle was to begin, but was from the time the expedition started.

One more thing is that in any expedition, there would obviously be many sub-expeditions that the Prophet would command for people to do, so perhaps we can also look into that ??? Not only for Tabuk but for other expeditions as well, though in this case we are talking about Tabuk only.

In any case, perhaps Ali Zaki can give us the references he has read, and perhaps together we can come to a conclusion in this regard, if he believes I have missed some point, etc.



Edited by jello
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Ali Zaki View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:34pm

Salaam Jello,

I have read several accounts, however, I am not able to determine that there was a particular person that was considered the "head of the expedition". There is two possible reasons for this 1.) Since the prophet was with them, noone held the position of Imam other than the Prophet (a.s.) himself 2.) Since there was no battle (as the Romans had left before the Muslims arrived), there was noone designated as "standard bearer", which is usually recognized as the commander of the army (after the Prophet, of course, if he is present).

Is this what you wanted?

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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