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some thoughts I watned to share

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herjihad View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 November 2005 at 6:12am

Bismillah,

Oh, Allah, We know that you will curse the murderers of Muslims in mosques.  We pray that you guide the misguided who are harming us all over the world.  Give us strength and courage to help each other.  Ameen

I was going to post this in a new topic, but I posted it here because it relates to the topic of clothing, wearing jeans or a scarf.  This article emphasizes the point that clothing doesn't always protect us, and that what does a girl in France do because she is caught between two forces with power and different demands.  The poor immigrant girls in France seem to have it so much harder than I ever imagined. I cried when I read this, as well as the bombings of two mosques in Iraq for Friday prayers. 

 Of course, the point of view of this author is skewed against Islaam when she seems to state that it is a burden to be expected to be a virgin at marriage and other points she makes like this, but there are basic facts that can't be ignored because of her point of view.  Of course there must be happy and well adjusted girls who are quite happy with their families protection of their dignity and honor, who are well provided for and have no worries such as this.  Anyone in France with stories like that, please share them also.

  MSNBC.com

Victimized by their own
In France�s rough areas, women face sexism, violence in their communities

The Associated Press
Updated: 9:31 p.m. ET Nov. 17, 2005

SAINT-DENIS, France - Fifteen-year-old Rawa risks verbal abuse � or worse � every time she leaves her house wearing jeans. Jenah was thrown out of the family home at 11, became a drug dealer at 13, and was raped by a relative a year later.

If young men in France�s poor housing projects � scenes of three weeks of nightly arson and unrest � have it rough, girls often have it worse. Not only do they suffer from racism, unemployment and deprivation: They also endure daily harassment and even violence in their own communities.

�Women are double victims, of social and sexual discrimination as well as violence,� said Fadela Amara, founder of Ni Putes, Ni Soumises (Neither Whores nor Submissives), a group fighting to improve the lot of Muslim women and girls in impoverished French neighborhoods.

The plight of girls and women in the high-rise housing projects indicates that while racial discrimination may keep immigrants and their offspring on the margins of French society, that may not be the whole picture.

Some resist integrating
Some people in France�s mostly Muslim North and Sub-Saharan African immigrant communities have resisted accepting Western values and the French way of life � making it harder for them to thrive. Polygamous households, while uncommon, can also be a barrier to integration.

Often from conservative backgrounds, many parents find it hard to shake off taboos. They expect their French-born daughters to remain virgins until marriage and refuse to allow them to marry non-Muslims.

And girls are often forced into marriages they do not want, said Amara.

�There�s an identity crisis here,� said Sonia Imloul, who works with troubled teens in Seine-Saint-Denis, a district northeast of Paris where the rioting � now abated � erupted Oct. 27. �It is very tough when you are stuck midway between France and Algeria or Morocco.�

Some activists say the influence of radical Islamic preachers is partly to blame for how men treat women.

Beatings, gang rapes too common
An Algerian Muslim prayer leader, Abdelkader Bouziane, was convicted last year in the southeastern city of Lyon and handed a six-year suspended sentence for publicly justifying beating an adulterous wife. He was deported to Algeria in October 2004.

Physical violence � including gang rapes � has been widely reported against girls and young women of North African origin.

Amara notes a pattern of unemployed immigrant fathers losing authority to sons who bring in money by dealing drugs, stealing or who have adopted radical Islam. Girls in such families are often exposed to violence and exploitation or to religious repression, she said.

Samira Bellil�s 2002 book �Dans l�Enfer des Tournantes� (In Gang-Rape Hell) gave France a rare firsthand, graphic account of the troubles women face, including her own experience of gang rape.

�Your reputation is important in the projects,� wrote Bellil, who died of stomach cancer in 2003 at age 31. �It follows you everywhere. A girl can be branded easy or a little slut even if she does nothing wrong.�

Another incident that highlighted the tragedies that befall women in the projects was the murder of 19-year-old Sohanne Denziane: Her ex-boyfriend doused her with gasoline and set her on fire for breaking up with him.

Some girls have taken to wearing Islamic head coverings as protection against violence. But then they face pressures from the French state, which has banned veils and other religious symbols from schools to uphold the country�s secular principles � and to quell Islamic fundamentalism. Authorities argue that girls should be empowered to cast off veils that are sometimes forced on them by their parents.

But Imloul says parents are in denial, because most of the girls in the projects date, have sex and smoke marijuana.

Sometimes, parents push their children into the mean streets.

Jenah Benzanfour was 11 when her mother threw her out of the house because she was getting into trouble at school and with police for stealing and threatening her teacher with a knife.

At 13, she started selling marijuana and Ecstasy for neighborhood thugs. At 14, she says, her uncle raped her over a period of several months. At 15, she was a prostitute.

Last month, Imloul happened to be driving by as Jenah was being beaten by a thug before onlooking neighbors. The social worker dragged Jenah away, took her to a clinic and then to the local police station.

�I had rage against everyone�
Police were unsympathetic. �They made fun of me, as if to say �Why do you care, this girl is a loser,�� said Imloul. They told her she would be wasting their time because Jenah had �a bad record, bad history.�

Jenah, now 16, is living with a family in a building across from her mother. She says she has stopped selling drugs and stealing, and only now can reflect on her previous troubles.

�I hated the world,� she said. �I had rage against everyone.�

For her part, 15-year-old Rawa Khalil doesn�t leave home after dark, though daytime can be harrowing, too, with boys on the street calling her �whore.�

Her mother, Manoubia, 37, had been a victim of domestic violence at the hands of her drug dealing ex-husband. But now she is treated with contempt because she is no longer married.

�We have no father,� Rawa said, �no one to protect us.�URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10089543/from/RSS/



Edited by herjihad
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herjihad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2005 at 5:59am

Bismillah,

Again, as I said in response to your post in "veiling", I personally appreciate your response.  I agree with you, and thank you again

Your message is clear, well-written, and helpful.  May Allah, SWT, keep you and always protect you and your family.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Khadija1021 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2005 at 3:51am

Assalamu Alaikum Sisters,

As I have recently stated in another post about hijab, although some Muslims believe that the Qur'an explicitly states that all Muslimat must veil themselvs, I do not agree with this interpretation of the Qur'an.  I believe there is a great confusion regarding what was required of the Prophet's (pbuh) wives and what is required of other Muslimat.  The only ayat in the Qur'an (Sura 33, Ayat 53) that makes a clear statement about "screening" or "veiling" is addressed to the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).  It is obvious by another statement in this ayat (�or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time�) that what is being said in it is specifically for the mothers of believers and not all Muslimat.  Also, if you look at Ayat 59 of that same sura, you will see that it is addressed to the wives and daughters of the Prophet (pbuh) as well at to Muslimat, whereas, Ayat 53 is addressed to Muslims regarding their behaviors toward the Prophet�s (pbuh) family. 

There are two ayats in the Qur�an which explicitly speak of how Muslimat of marriageable age should dress.  They are as follows:

�And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands their fathers their husbands' fathers their sons their husbands' sons their brothers or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons or their women or the slaves whom their right hands possess or male servants free of physical needs or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah that ye may attain Bliss.� (Ayat 30 of Sura 24)

 �O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient that they should be known (as such) and not molested: and Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.� (Ayat 59 of Sura 33)

The first of the above two ayats expresses the importance of guarding one�s modesty, lowering one�s gaze and not doing that which will draw attention to what is hidden.  In this ayat, it states that Muslimat must cover their bosoms and not show their beauty to anyone but their husbands and those who are maharem.  It is clear to me that there is not an explicit command to cover one�s head or to veil one�s face in this passage.  However, it is clear that I must guard my modesty, lower my gaze and not do things which will draw attention to what is hidden from the view of non-maharem.

We should ask ourselves why Allah commanded this of us.  Was it a means by which the world could identify us as Muslimat?  It is some type of Muslimat uniform or is it rather a means to protect us from falling into that which is haraam.  That is, it is a means to help protect us from committing zina.  It is clear by the context of the ayats before and after this ayat that the issue of purity (i.e., chastity until marriage and then protecting the unity of marriage) is the focus.    We guard our modesty by covering our bosoms and not doing things to draw attention to that which is hidden.  We also lower our gaze so that not only are others not misled to believe we are interested in them but also we do not know if they are looking at or interested in us.  (This goes for Muslims too and not just Muslimat.)

I must agree with Jenni and say that what draws attention to us in one community may not necessarily be so in another and that we must be willing to dress accordingly as long as in doing so we make sure we are protecting our modesty.  It doesn�t mean that if we are on a beach and everyone else is in bikinis we too should dawn a bikini.  Doing so would not allow us to protect our modesty.  However, if we are in a community were there are no or few Muslims and the general population is uneducated regarding Islam, wearing a hijab may have the opposite affect it has in a Muslim community.  This does not mean a Muslimah should wear tight clothing or do other things to draw attention to her.  It simply means the purpose and focus of the way we dress is not on some uniform or dress code per say but rather on protecting us from falling into haraam (in this case the haraam of zina).  The questions we should be asking ourselves are �Does the way I dress or act put me in jeopardy, in any way, of becoming impure?� and �How can I dress to best protect and insure my modesty?�  and not on �Do I look like all other Muslimat in the world?� or �Are other Muslimat going to judge me harshly if I ware this.?�  If you ask yourself the questions I believe we should be asking ourselves, you may be surprised to find that the answer to these questions will depend on a number of factors.  In some cases it may be that you will dress as if you are �in uniform�; however, in others that may not be the case.

The second ayat doesn�t give rise to a need for me to correct anything I have said.  This ayat is making reference to how we should deal with those who would molest (annoy) us.  And the best way to do that is to protect our modesty.  One thing I am fairly positive of is that all communities have a concept of modesty even if they themselves don�t conform to that concept.  This is true even amongst different Islamic communities.  While it may be true that in some Arabic Islamic communities protecting one�s modesty means nothing shorter than wearing a burqa is required, in other Islamic communities simply choosing to wear loose clothing (such as wearing loose fitting Shalwar Kameez and dupatta) is considered enough to protect one�s modesty.  Even most non-muslims know that if they sees a woman who is dressed modestly and who has her gaze lowered that she is not interested in compromising her purity.  Furthermore, there is no guarantee that a Muslimah will be safer in a Muslim community than she would be in a non-Muslim one.  The world is made up of humans and there are good and bad ones in all communities.  Allah command is for us to do our best to guard our purity in all situations whether it is at home or abroad.  However, the sad truth of the matter is that even the purest of intentions and the strictest of covering is not a 100% guarantee that we are safe in this world.  What matters is our intentions and our desire to protest our modesty because that is what Allah commands us to do.

I would like to point out another ayat that I believe helps clarify my position here.  It is as follows:

�Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage there is no blame on them if they lay aside their (outer) garments provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty: but it is best for them to be modest: and Allah is One Who sees and knows all things.� (Ayat 60 of Sura 24)

This ayat clearly shows that what is important in the way Muslimat dress is to protect themselves again impurity (i.e., of committng zina).  If the importance was on being recognized as a Muslimat by the way we dress (have a �uniform�), then women past the age of marriage would not be told they could lay aside the garments that protect their modesty.

With respect to the issue of how we dress for prayer and whether or not it is how we should dress at other times, I think is clear that how we dress at different time depends on the circumstance in which we find ourselves.  I believe if you read the Qur�an, there are four ways in which Muslimat (and Muslims) dress and each way has its own purpose distinct from the others.  They are dressing for 1.) worship, 2.) family life, 3.) private life (with spouse), and 4.) community (around non-maharem).   We should not say that the way we dress to worship Allah is the same way we should dress to appear within the community anymore than we should say that the way we dress in our family life (with maharem) is the same way we should dress for our spouse.  Or duties and obligations to each of these areas of our life are not the same so how can we assume that the way we dress in any two of these areas will be the same.  To make this claim is to be shortsighted as to the beauty of the wisdom of Allah.  I would never go for prayer dressed as I do to be with my husband in private just as I would never dress in private for my husband the same way I would dress to go to prayer.  And although how I dress in public may be closer to how I would dress for prayer than is the comparison between how I dress for my husband and how I dress for prayer, this does not imply that the reasons I dress for any one of these situations has anything to do with the reasons I dress the way I do for another.  My duty to dress one way to pray is not the same as my duty to dress while in the community which is not the same as my duty to dress in my family life which is not the same as my duty to dress for my husband.  To say they are the same or to make such comparisons is unfounded in the Qur�an.

 And as always, I have said more than a mouth full so I will stop.  Please forgive me for being so long winded�it�s the curse of the philosopher in me�  I simply hope, inshallah, that I may have helped shed some light on aspects of this subject that has not simply been hashed and rehashed already. 

Allah Hafiz

PAZ,

Khadija



Edited by Khadija1021
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herjihad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2005 at 10:32am

Bismillah,

Thanks for your response, Jenni.  I'm glad that you understand what I'm saying. 

 I lived in Jordan for a couple of years wearing hijab, as I had done for about 12 years before that in America.  One of the biggest problems I had in Jordan was the attention.  This is what drove me to need anonymity when I returned home. 

It was exhausting to be talked about (there goes a foreigner) everywhere, all the time.  You know how people will say things under their breath and you and they both know that you can hear them?  It was all the time.

And then there were the marriage offers every day. Yes, I'm married.  Then to the: do you have a sister question, I started to mention to these racists that I did and she was black.  No one was interested after that.  (And I really did have a Muslim sister who said if you find someone...)  But it cut the conversation short, and that was what I needed.  Because after all, I was just trying to buy vegetables, or bread, or clothing, whatever.

So even though if I I have to go back to Jordan I will wear it, it doesn't give the protection and respect that we deserve.  Also, many men, not just a few, also approached me there.  Maybe they think that Western Women are immoral no matter what we wear.  It was hell there for me.  I almost died.  And God bless the Embassy for saving me to care for my children.

Queenie, here is the crux of the problem.  I don't look at it as a choice between hijab, death and hell.  I understand your difficulty of not wanting men to approach you for untoward reasons.  And if you feel comfortable dealing with it in this way, may Allah, SWT bless your intentions and your effort.

Maybe you are like I was:  Naive, young and sweet.  I wasn't the type to just say:  Buzz off, jerk.  But ladies who can do that easily without it upsetting their day really have my admiration.  I would say, No.  I'm married.  And the comeback: So, so am I.  Junk like that. 

I have found the words that work for me and my personality to reject people interested in me.  The first sentence coming out of my mouth I mention my dear husband and something he and I were talking about, did together, or were going to do together in a couple of minutes.  I mention my kids.  It has been useful for me; maybe it will help you.  Because when I am working, I meet a lot of new people frequently whom I have to talk to. 

This is one way of boundary setting.  Maybe some sisters could mention others to you.

So back to the idea of the scarf as obeying Allah, SWT.  I don't believe that Allah, SWT, has intended to make our religion difficult for us.  And I don't take it as a personal fault even because I am not responsible for creating the people staring at me when I wear it.  And it's not just the men.  It's the people around me who gave me a hard time as a white woman who they see as having betrayed her culture, her country, her family, and her faith (ex-Christian).

No, I don't believe I am betraying Allah, SWT.  I believe that that happens when I am impatient and despair.  And then I still know that Allah, SWT, returns to those who return to him.

So once again, I appeal to you who think that women like me are evil or wrongdoers to rethink your positions.  And stop saying it's not your position and that Allah will punish us.  You interpret the Quran that way or follow someone who does.  Again, I can't refer you to the respected authors who support my opinion, but you might do a search.  I am going to start working again soon, and won't have time to pursue any of this much anymore. 

 Sisters, I beseech you to strengthen your relationships between hijabi, non-hijabi, Shiite, Sunni, Bahai, and Anne Marie, and people like her whatever she is, Christians, Jews et cetera.  Good people need to unite, comfort each other and enourage each other to be patient, do good deeds and generally care for each other.  I personally have suffered so much in this life.  Allah, SWT, loves me because he has given me understanding through this suffering to reach out to others, to those who suffer more.  I reach out to you with patience and love.  Please always think about these things.  Your faith, your personality and your community, local and discussion board people, will only benefit from it.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote queenie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2005 at 9:57am
herjihad and jenni... that's quite funny you mention that about blending in, because I can in a way understand it, but not agree with it. I mean when I wasn't covering I would get attention from the opposite sex of all races and religions, even women tend to try to compete with you or show you attitude for what i think is insecurity. however when it came to attention from the opposite sex i felt that they did not know when to draw the line. I also felt I am recieving the attention because although I'm dressed modestly people may still find you attractive. But they don't know I'm a muslimah ....and certain things which are allowed in their way of life are not a part of my way of life. But how do you make total strangers understand this? often the attention was turning into harassment, all on the basis of what i looked like. But since wearing a hijab and islamic attire i feel the attention is somewhat less, but it is still there. The only thing that has changed is that the majority of men (not all) tend to recognise the hijaab as a blatant statement of "do not harass me I do not wish to be harassed" . But you get men from various places of the muslim world who actually find hijaab more appealing so it has the opposite effect. They stare at you, they approach you and all sorts things. Living in the west means you stand out as a muslimah and of course people will stare at you. but women will get attention wherever they are whatever they wear. But you should do whts right by your religion shouldn't you? i mean that is the point of having a belief..a way of life...is to follow it in its entireity and not  make our own rules as to what is best suited to our own personal choices? we should do our actions for the sake of allah because he is the one we are answerable to. we should not be scared of the attention we recieve from people because we are muslim. I mean what is the worst they can do to us? kill us? lol. If they do at least you know you died in a way for your deen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amina16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2005 at 4:35pm
thanks Abeer23 i try my best to me a good muslim. 
"Words have Power" ex: The Quran
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abeer23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2005 at 4:03pm

Amina16, ma sha allah alayke.  You are an excellent example for our youth.  These days, it gets harder and harder to find young people with the kind of love for Allah and his religion as you have.    Your parents have given you an excellent foundation in Islam.   You are definately on the right track..

Yahfidhukellah!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jenni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2005 at 2:47pm
Herjihad, that is how I feel as well. I really really just want strangers in public to leave me totally alone. I am a mother with young children and my husband sometimes travels for work so we are alone. Anyway I don't want to make people curious and want to approach me. And as a very white person with blue eyes when I put on a hijab the non muslims approach me and the Muslims want to know where I am from and ask me lots of questions. With the way I dress and act no-one bothers me at all. But If I lived in a Muslim country where even alot of women choose not to wear hijab, I definitly would wear it. And I think those women who get more respect like in Egypt, Jordan Pakistan ect. for covering and choose not to are really wrong. I would love to be able to wear a Chador and traditional clothes every day and feel safe and respected. Peace
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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