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    Posted: 11 November 2006 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by amlhabibi2000 amlhabibi2000 wrote:

 

Salam Alaikoam

It is my opinion that Islam existed since the beginning and there since the beginning we were/are all Muslims as we all have/are submitting to the will of Allah though each of us submits in varying degrees.

So therefore Christianity, Hindu, Jewdaism, Seik, Buddhism are all expressions of the evolution of Islam.

This given in all these religions and even people with none we all give in charity, pray one or more times a day, make pilgrimage to our Holy places and read our spiritual texts.

The keys of being a Muslim are the following in my books

1. Education in a trade or proffession so we can support ourselves and our families with grace and dignity

2. Counseling, getting proffessional advice and guidance whether from professionals or clery and learn such skills as good communications skills, parenting skills, good conflict resolution skills, relationship skills

3. Consultation, whether it is consulting a proffessional over some challenge we have to get good advice in how to resolve the family, personal or community issues with grace and dignity

4. Making a personal pilgramage to our lives, our families, communities, Nations and world to see where we need help or can give it

5. Living prayers, being of service some how to our families, communities, Nation or world such as digging a well where they need water or teaching a course in a low income area or guiding someone to counseling or medical treatment

To me Islam is not stagnant at all but ever evolving and changing.

To me there is great hope in Islam and Humanity as we are the Ummah of Islam.

With the advancement of technology the world is in the growing pains coming to adult hood and we are experiencing the pains of yet a jevanile society still growing and learning.

Some may want Islam to be in a box but it is not it in everwhere, in everything.  Life is Islam and Islam is Life.

Salam

Anne Marie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If someone follows Islam, according to your list of personal opinions and conjecture, they will be following a path that is heretical and innovated, and will not be within the folds of the definition of "Islam".

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Nawawi619 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nawawi619 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2006 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by raushan raushan wrote:

Swearing allegiance to a particular scholar with such ardour that the followers become a sect is against the spirit of Islam. The great Fiq�h scholars never advocated it themselves. The Holy Qur�an denounces the sectarianism in no uncertain words; �Cling one and all to the Rope of Allah and be not divided among yourselves..� (3:103)

As Salamu Alaykum

I think you need to re-read my post.  A Muslim who adheres to one of the four madhahib isn't swearing allegiance to a particular scholar. In fact a person who adheres to a madhhab is following qualified scholarship as undertaken by the entire school not just one scholar.  I illustrated that in the example I used with the Shafi'i Madhhab.  Each successive generation of scholars from that school looked upon the legal rulings and opinions of the school reevaluated in light of the methodology of the school and the primary evidence and upgraded accordingly. 

No denies following the Qur'an and Sunnah. The question is who are you following? The Prophet (salla llahu alayhi wa sallam) is no longer personally alive to teach us. All we have left is what has been transmitted by people.  Do we follow a person who simply reads a book of ahadith he bought from the store? or do we take ahadith who studied the ahadith or work or science of Islam from masters in an unbroken chain back to the source?  I prefer following this unbroken chain of transmission. This insures that what I follow is based on the correct context and understanding that the source intended.

Following a madhhab isn't making allegiance to anyone.  One can change their madhhab if they choose, they aren't stuck with it once they choose. I recommend you get the cd lecture on why we follow madhhabs by Imam Zaid Shakir. Its available at Alhambra Productions.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amlhabibi2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2006 at 7:30pm

 

Salam Alaikoam

It is my opinion that Islam existed since the beginning and there since the beginning we were/are all Muslims as we all have/are submitting to the will of Allah though each of us submits in varying degrees.

So therefore Christianity, Hindu, Jewdaism, Seik, Buddhism are all expressions of the evolution of Islam.

This given in all these religions and even people with none we all give in charity, pray one or more times a day, make pilgrimage to our Holy places and read our spiritual texts.

The keys of being a Muslim are the following in my books

1. Education in a trade or proffession so we can support ourselves and our families with grace and dignity

2. Counseling, getting proffessional advice and guidance whether from professionals or clery and learn such skills as good communications skills, parenting skills, good conflict resolution skills, relationship skills

3. Consultation, whether it is consulting a proffessional over some challenge we have to get good advice in how to resolve the family, personal or community issues with grace and dignity

4. Making a personal pilgramage to our lives, our families, communities, Nations and world to see where we need help or can give it

5. Living prayers, being of service some how to our families, communities, Nation or world such as digging a well where they need water or teaching a course in a low income area or guiding someone to counseling or medical treatment

To me Islam is not stagnant at all but ever evolving and changing.

To me there is great hope in Islam and Humanity as we are the Ummah of Islam.

With the advancement of technology the world is in the growing pains coming to adult hood and we are experiencing the pains of yet a jevanile society still growing and learning.

Some may want Islam to be in a box but it is not it in everwhere, in everything.  Life is Islam and Islam is Life.

Salam

Anne Marie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2006 at 12:16am

Originally posted by raushan raushan wrote:

No right thinking Muslim can ignore the services and contribution of the great Fiq�h scholars. The Qur�an orders us to follow them (Men of authority in their respective fields) in all such matters on which different authorities of a particular field are unanimous. But if the authentic authorities differ on a subject, that issue should be referred to Qur�an and Hadith for guidance. There is no room for choice in this matter. This is a very specific and clear cut order of Almighty Allah.

Assalam Aleikum raushan.

When there is a difference of opinion between the scholars of the four madhabs, the difference is not because the scholars have decided to ignore the primary sources of Islam. Hence, you will not find the solution to the differences. The scholars reach differeing opinions due to interpretational matters. They still go to the primary sources, but sometimes there is room for interpretation.

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raushan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2006 at 10:51pm
No right thinking Muslim can ignore the services and contribution of the great Fiq�h scholars. The Qur�an orders us to follow them (Men of authority in their respective fields) in all such matters on which different authorities of a particular field are unanimous. But if the authentic authorities differ on a subject, that issue should be referred to Qur�an and Hadith for guidance. There is no room for choice in this matter. This is a very specific and clear cut order of Almighty Allah.

�O believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and the persons of authority among you. But if you differ about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. That (only) is the best (course) and a just interpretation.� [4:59]

Swearing allegiance to a particular scholar with such ardour that the followers become a sect is against the spirit of Islam. The great Fiq�h scholars never advocated it themselves. The Holy Qur�an denounces the sectarianism in no uncertain words; �Cling one and all to the Rope of Allah and be not divided among yourselves..� (3:103)

�Be not like those who became divided and opposed to one another after clear signs have been given them. For them is a stern chastisement.� (3:105)

�Have nothing to do with those who have split up their religion into sects. Allah will call them to account and declare to them what they have done.� (6:159)

How can the Muslims, the believers in One God, His Message the Qur�an and followers of the Prophet whose every word and action is recorded in history, be divided to become sects. The Qur�an says that it is Mushrikeen (those who ascribe partners to Allah who become divided to the extent of becoming sects.

�...And be not of those who associate others with Allah, those who split up their religion and became sects, each exulting in its own belief.� (30:31-32)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nawawi619 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2006 at 10:41am

In the name of Allah, the All Merciful, the Compassionate

Prayers and blessings be upon his noble Messenger Muhammad, and to his Family, to his Companions, and to those who follow their guidance until the Day of Judgement

 

Following this discourse on the  Madhahib we need to first understand the role of the madhhab.  All this info I am about to share with all of you is from the audio lecture on following a madhhab by Imam Zaid Shakir.

Using some analogy, the Quran and the Sunnah is the mountain; we are far away from it looking at with awe and amazement.  We would like to get a better look at this mountain.  The madhahib serves as the binoculars so one can see the intricate details on the mountain.  Now we dont look at the binoculars, we look at the mountain. So the madhahib is merely a tool on how to see the Prophetic guidance with greater clarity and detail then with, using the analogy again, seeing the mountain with a naked eye.

Secondly a madhhab is not the work of one Imam or one scholar.  A madhhab is a school of jurisprudence, where the founding Imam would lay out the jurisprudential principles of his school and bring about the preliminary legal rulings based on those principles.  His students would then reexamine and update the legal conclusions of the school, using the principles that the founding Imam has established.  Take for example the Shafi'i School:

1) Imam Shafi'i laid out the jurisprudential principles of his school and started the preliminary legal conclusions.

2) The his main students like Imam Muzani, Imam Buwaythi, and others reevaluated his legal conclusions based on his methodology and evidence and upgraded when necessary.

3) The next generation consisted who consisted of luminaries like Imam Bayhaqi did the same, reevaluated the legal rulings of the school based on the principles of the school and upgraded.

4) The generation after Imam Bayhaqi had the likes of Imam al Haramayn al Juwayni who reevaluated the legal rulings of the school and upgraded

5) Imam Juwayni's student Hujjatul Islam Imam Abu Hamid al Ghazali was of the next generation who did the same

6) After Ghazali was Imam Rafi'i and his contemporaries who continued to upgrade the school. Imam al Rafi' actually condensed and expounded on Imam Ghazali's work Al Wajiz.

7) After Rafi' Imam Nawawi came  who  reevaluated and upgraded the entire school based the earlier works of fiqh from the school especially from his predecessor Imam Rafi'.  He created a manual called Minhaj at Talibin which became the foremost reference work for the later Shafi'i school. 

*The soundest and most reliable legal rulings of the Shafi' madhhab is from what Imam Rafi' and what Imam Nawawi agree on, followed by Imam Nawawi's position.

8) Imam Ibn Hajar al Haytami and Imam ar Ramli came after Imam Nawawi and expounded on Imam Nawawi's work.

So as we have illustrated from this example, the madhhab is not the ruling or legal conclusions of one Imam or scholar, but rather, it is a work of hundreds if not thousands of scholars from the school in each generation who have reevaluated and upgraded the legal conclusions of the school based on the jurisprudential principles laid out by the Imam himself.  This process of refining and correcting has made all four madhahib sound schools of jurisprudence within the Sunni tradition. 

Finally, following a madhhab, ie Taqlid, is not blindly following as some detractors say now.  But rather, following a madhhab is in fact the following of qualified scholarship.  The scholars that I have mentioned in the Shafi'i school, for example, were giants in the fields of Hadith, Quran, Fiqh, and the other sciences.  We look to specialists in Islamic law because most of us do not have the time nor intellect to learn all the requisite knowledge required to derive legal rulings from the Quran and Sunnah.  In traditional ciriculums, a person who wants to be a Mufti, a specialist in Islamic law who can issue out fatwa (expert legal opinions) would have to go through 20 years of learning.  Fiqh would not  be the only science studied but also Arabic language, Quran, Tafsir, Hadith and its sciences, Usul al Fiqh, Qawa'id al fiqhiyah, logic, rhetoric, and others.

So I hope with this exposition inshallah we realize the need to follow qualified scholarship. In an age where its the Do-it-yourself Islam, we are treading on dangerous waters trying to derive our own rulings based on our one dimensional understanding of the Quran and Hadith.

Wa salla Llahu ala Sayyidina Muhammad wa ala alihi wa sahbihi wa sallim taslima kathira

Wa Llahu ta'Ala Alim wa Hasbunallahu wa ni'ma al Wakil.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shams Zaman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 6:14am

Dear Ahmed and Rami!

By refuting the sects I don't mean to invalidate or criticize the 4 Mazhabs. Indeed these scholars and all others whom we call as Sunnah wal Jamat did a splended job to resolve the THEN existing problems in their socities. Why they differ? of course due to logic and non-availablity of the complete litratue and collection of Hadith.

But there is a unique saying of all these scholars, that if anyone find anything of my explaination and interperation contradicting with Quran and Sunnah he should hit my explaination with the wall or words to this effect.

They never proclaimed that they have devised a set of principles and interperation which must be followed. Infact all of died in either captivity or exile fighting the pressures to either accept the post of a religious ministery or proclaim that this is the interpertation to be followed.

They all refused but said that these are our explainations and all have the right to contradict these on logic and evidence from Quran and Sunnah. So we may consult them or even adopt some of these principles or even all pf these principles but this has to be on our own effort to examine this in the light of Quran and Sunnah.

Finally we should not go for blind TAQLEED or following or to proclaim sect on the basis of these Madhabs or teachings. We still must proclaim ourself as Muslims and not as Hanifi, sunni, shia, shafi etc, with an open mind to critically evaluate the teachings.

Shams Zaman

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 2:04am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Ahmad i agree with your defanition of what the madhhabs are but not on why this ummah is in the state it is in.

Taqleed is necassery for all people including scholars, but i would assume now you only see taqlid as simply following a scholars opinion on a matter, which is not exactly true if you were to learn how actual scholars use taqleed you will get a diferent picture of what it is.

a simple example, a scholar uses the legal principles of his madhhab to rule on a matter that has come he exersises his judgment with the various evidences but makes taqleed of the opinons of various scholars on particular points such as the grading of a hadith. When he uses a hadith for evidence he makes taqleed of say Imam Bukhari's opinion that this particular hadith with its chain of naration is sahih, insha allah you are starting to get the picture, instead of researching every little point himself which would be an enourmous task to do for every ruling he makes taqleed of the opinions of the scholars in diferent sientific fields such as tafseer, language or hadith grading.

I agree to some extent that taqleed is a problem but not from the people you asociate it with. The people who taqleed is a problem for are those who reject taqleed all together even though they practice it every day with out realisation. They say we should not follow madhhabs or scholars but only Quran and sunnah meaning that they only follow what they understand from a 5 min analysis of evidence and have no regard for things like context of ahadith whether it is the context of the wider event in the ahadtih or time of revelation in the 23 year period as well as asbab an nuzul (reason for revelation). Think about this if you will, these people day in and day out literaly adopt what they read and understand from the Quran and sunnah they do not analysie on any deep level and have no understanding of legal, logical, linguistic or ethical principles which must be considered when analysing evidence.

any person familiar with law will understand when following and aplying any form of principles this process will promote analytical skills something which can not be placed with the stagnation you speak of. When you study the methods of the madhhabs you will learn the principles of the madhhabs not the rullings and as a imam that i know once said if you were to go and learn with imam abu hanifah all you would be talking about is principles.

In the madhhab you make taqleed of the principles and methods they used, taqleed of the fiqh comes after you understand the principles themself.

The stagnation you are talking about is not becouse of taqleedas traditionaly used it is becouse muslims do not practice the religion, what does allah himself say in the Quran act on my religion and i my self will teach you knowledge you did not have beffore, which also means he will open up ways for you to apply this relgion to situations that have not arisen beffore also known in islam as mutaghayirat ( new matters, or mattters whose nature changes).

taqleed when taken by itself to be the sole act that a muslim should do to know his religion will always give an extreme picture of this ummah it is only one thing we should do among other things.  How can something practiced from the begining of islam (as the sahabah did taqleed of rasul allah) be the cause of the ummahs downfall. this Ummah produced some of the worlds most brilliant minds all of whom practiced taqleed of the madhhabs. We need to look at and understand it in its correct light and usage.

regarding the problems of this ummah i would recomend you look at The rise and fall of the Ummah [an examination of the social, economic, cultural and political decline of the Muslim ummah], i dont think the matter is as simple as laying the blame at the feet of taqleed something which the majority of people can not do without since most do not wish to be scholars or are even capable of it, taqleed is practical for people.

you may also find the advice of this brother helpfull on the matter of the madhhabs, if i could highlight tow particular works which you may be interested in.

Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence and 'Shatibi's Philosophy of Islamic Law'

I am not certain about the works of Bernard G. Weiss so i am not recomending them as such but they are an after thought in the article.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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