Revelation in the Catholic Church

Dear David,

Ameen, thank you for a clear explanation.

Regards,
Asep

Saved said, >>You have been fed misconceptions about true Biblical Christianity and most Muslims refuse to be told this fact, because they want to believe the lies told about true Biblical Christianity. <<

Very true. Christians have misconceptions about Islam as well.   Hopefully we will all gain a more accurate understanding of each other.

asep48garut60 wrote: Syahadah means recognition, believe it or testimony. Muslims recognize that there is no god except Allah, and also recognize that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

I understand, but you still must recognize Muhammad by mentioning him with Allah as his slave messenger and as an oracle of your faith or you cannot be Muslim without mentioning Muhammad. I see that as an association, because you cannot just mention Allah; you have to mention Muhammad in the syahadah. Muslims say we associate Jesus to God, and we do as His Word, but unlike Muslims, we can recognize all prophets without having to mention or associate them with God.

IOW, we don't have a Christian syahadah. God's Word is associated to Him like my word is to me and yours to you, but no other prophet should be named with Allah as pertaining to our relationship with God unless that prophet is the Word of God. No matter how you twist or turn this it is an association to one degree or other.

asep48garut60 wrote: Essentially, only Allah who can save me in the hereafter. Regards, Asep

But you must mention Muhammad with Allah and you must obey Muhammad and you must obey Allah. Don't Muslims project unto Christians what they really do? God has already sent you salvation in Christ Jesus, if you don't accept it, this is at your spiritual peril.

Regards,
Saved

Edited by Saved - 28 December 2016 at 7:07am

asep48garut60 wrote: Dear Saved, As far as I know that Jesus didn't know Catholic, but Nasrani.

Paul persecuted the very early church. The church didn't change after Paul's conversion to stop believing Jesus was and is the Son of God. Paul couldn't accept it at first, but he saw the truth and preached it

asep48garut60 wrote: I�ve found that that Nasrani came from Nazareth, that is the teachings brought by Jesus (Matthew 2:23, 21:11; Mark 10:47), and his followers were called the Nassara or Nazarean. At that time, Nazarean still follow the teachings of monotheism taught by Jesus (John 17:3) and still keep the Torah law (Matthew 5:17), as well as the teachings of Abraham, namely; circumcision (Genesis 17:9), do not eat pork (Leviticus 11:7) and do not drink alcohol (Leviticus 10:9), etc.

Read carefully.

And the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying,

9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: This command is to a specific person (Aaron) not to drink wine when he goes to a specific place. It is not saying Aaron can never drink wine. It is a statute for all not to drink before going to the tabernacle. Jesus turned water to fine wine at the marriage feast in Canaan.
Furthermore, Christians are monotheistic in its purest form. We are not told to teach or preach the trinity. The term is not even in the gospel. We just understand the concept is there, but what is strange is Allah didn't seem to understand the concept that dominates the greater percentages of Christians througout the world; lets say more people believe in the concept of God's triunity then there are Muslims in the world.

Me personally, I believe God is one and Jesus is His Word. It is not my problem if I cannot dispel the grave misconceptions Muslims have of Christianity, but it doesn't surprise me seeing the Quran is your only reaction source against Christianity.

asep48garut60 wrote: While Christian that I know today isn't the same as Nasrani, including in terms of faith who believe that Jesus is the son of God, even some Christians call him (Jesus) the Lord and Savior (the Messiah). According to my thought, Nasrani with Tawheed while Christian with Trinity.

The term tawheed is not in the Quran either. Just like we cannot explain the trinity, you cannot explain tawheed. Monotheism came from the Judeo-Christian faith. Did you know during pre Islamic times, the people worshipped a different god for each day.

You say Nasrani with Tawheed while Christian with Trinity, but Christians say God is one and Jesus is His Word, but you say God is one and Muhammad is his messenger. We associate God's Word to Him which is not idolatry, but why must you associate Muhammad with God as his slave messenger in the second part of the shahadah as an oracle of your faith? You see I couldn't do that without violating my conscious.

asep48garut60 wrote: Also as far as I know that the word "Christian" derived from the words of Paul in Antioch about the year 40 AD after Jesus was lifted. Paul's followers were called Christians. "... In Antioch the disciples were first called Christians" (Acts 11:26).

So what is your point?

asep48garut60 wrote: Indeed, Jesus never said Islam, Muslim, Quran, Muhammad or Tawheed, because words such language is Arabic, but in the Islam perspective that Jesus asked people to worship only one God, that is Allah, and worship only to one God is called "Tawheed".

That wasn't Jesus main message, because all the Jews agreed with that. They didn't need told God is one. Remember Jesus came for the Jews. Jesus message wasn't Tawheed as Muslims understand it, but His message was to believe in Him as the only means of getting to Allah/God. He said "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He... No one comes to the father but by me." Christians know that Jesus isn't the father Jesus prayed to. You have been fed misconceptions about true Biblical Christianity and most Muslims refuse to be told this fact, because they want to believe the lies told about true Biblical Christianity.

asep48garut60 wrote: And you said: ---------------------------------------------------- �and none of His disciples referred to Him as son of Mary.� ------------------------------------------- Do they believe that Mary is the mother of Jesus ?, or they said "son of Mary" is taboo? So they consider it "son of God" and some even say Jesus is God, whether such presumptions are not making this up?

This is a no brainer. Jesus called God His father; so, what does that make Jesus to God? God called Jesus His beloved Son. What does that make God to Jesus? You don't believe this is the uncorrupted gospel, because you have been fed a pack of lies about true Biblical Christianity. BTW, yes someone called Jesus God; it was His father that called Him that Heb. 1

asep48garut60 wrote: But in Islam, who can make intercede is Allah (Quran 39:44) and to those who Allah wills (Quran 53:26) It could be the Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), the Prophet Musa (Moses), the Prophet Isa (Jesus), the Prophet Muhammad, and perhaps the other Prophets. Regards, Asep

All the prophets you mentioned here are dead and cannot do anything for us save Jesus alone who lives both spiritually and physically. And it is written in the gospel that Jesus ever intercedes for us. There is no other hope of glory according to the gospel.

If that is not clear, putting our faith in any other prophet be it Abraham , Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon and so on....cannot save you. Our faith in order for us not to commit idolatry is to put all our trust in Christ because the message Jesus brought was He is the Way; that means the only way to Allah/ God His father. To say differently is to call God and Jesus both liars. I cannot share in that with you, but I can tell you: you are loved in Christ

Best regards,
Saved

Edited by Saved - 12 December 2016 at 8:15am