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Topic ClosedEmperor Constantine was a Heretic

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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Emperor Constantine was a Heretic
    Posted: 18 April 2006 at 9:39am

bmz - i did not get all you were trying to say in your post re the temptation of Christ, it was rather confused.  bear in mind satan was trying to put Christ to the test - he said basically - "if you are the Son of God then prove it my way by jumping off the tower"  - he even had the audacity to quote the holy scriptures to the Lord (yes although satan is not omniscient, he does know the holy scriptures, and will even use them in a corrupt way to try to deceive).  now the Lord had no need or desire to do anything satans way.  instead he said "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" - bear also in mind who was being tempted  - Christ was being tempted.  this means that Christ was claiming to be God

did you actually check all the 10 references i gave?  well you couldnt have because i mistyped a couple of them, unless you found them for yourself.  your 10 response points were indeed most factual, but then you did not really change anything, did you? - Jesus is God.  lets go through them more carefully and see exactly whats being said 

1. he is eternal -john 5: 58 - should be john 8: 58 - the jews challenged him as to whether he had seen abraham, he said,"before abraham was, i am" - his words.  consider also john 17: 5 - "o father, glorify thou me....with the glory that i had with thee before the world was"

2. he gives eternal life - john 10: 28 - his answer starts in v. 25 - Jesus answered them ".........and i give unto them eternal life...." - his words, talking about himself

3. he sends angels - matthew 13: 41 and 24: 30,31 - note that in these verses, not only will he send the angels, but says they are his angels to send

4. he should get our highest love - matthew 10: 37,38 - jesus is speaking continually from v. 5 - in v. 37  he says "he that loveth father and mother more than me is not worthy of me"

5. he sets free from sin - john 8: 34,36 - he says "if the Son (ie himself) shall make you free (context is "free from sin" see v.34) ye shall be free indeed" -incidentally you are saying God sets free from sin, and that is true, but where in the quran does it say that allah sets free from sin?

6. he forgives sin - matthew 9: 6 - "that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins...." - Son of man being how the Lord probably most often referred to himself - he had the power

7. he searches hearts and minds - revelation 2: 23 - who is speaking these words - you have to look back to v.18 - the words are being addressed to the church at thyatira - "these things saith the Son of God..." - it is a section of messages to 7 churches, given by Christ to John to convey to the churches.  look back at chapter 1, v. 18, where the Person giving the revelation introduces himself so to speak - "i am he that liveth and was dead, and behold i am alive for evermore amen and have the keys of hell and of death" - he lives and was dead? it is Christ.

8. he will repay each according to his deeds - revelation 2: 23 - same thing, but as to your point about deeds, remember these messages are addressed to christians, and the deeds will be repaid according to reward in heaven, not with regard to judgement in hell

9. he will raise people on the last day - john 6: 40-44 - the words of jesus - "i will raise him up at the last day.."

10. he will judge the nations - matthew 35: 31,32-luke21: 36 - john 5: 22,23 - matthew 35 should read matthew 25 - my mistake! v. 31 starts "when the Son of man shall come in his glory...." again Christ!

so these are all the words of the Lord Jesus as found in the holy scriptures, of  course you may choose not to believe them, but dont call me illogical or anything for pointing out that Jesus claimed to be God, or for the fact that i believe he is, because i believe the bible

  • john 5: 23 is crucial - "all men should honour the Son even as they honour the Father.  he that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which sent him" - note that the Son is to be honoured even as (in the same way) as the Father.  those who will not do so do not honour the Father  - no this is not the "opinion" of john, as you suggest, (he doesnt give it as his opinion - read it) - it is the record of john, reporting the very words of our blessed Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ
now bmz - it must be nearly your bedtime - have a peaceful sleep!


Edited by fredifreeloader
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2006 at 5:34am

Good to know you are my neighbour just across the Caueway, pauline35.

Got good sense of humour!

BR

BMZ

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2006 at 4:13am
Is that mean whilst Jesus was in human form, the Auto-God is managing up there in heavan? How will auto god be able to justify which soul rest in heavan and which soul to be sent to hell whilst Lord Jesus was busy being tempted by the Satan during his course of meditation?

Gee! I just learned we are being computerised.

Edited by pauline35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2006 at 4:08am
The Auto-Pilot or the Computer.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2006 at 2:54am
Sometimes I ponder if inside an airplane transporting from point A to point B, two pilots(the god is Captain and the son is co-pilot) are flying the aircraft, when the Captain needs to go to the gents, the co-pilot will stay inside the cockpit and vice versa. If there is only one pilot inside the airplane whilst cruising and he needs a break to the lavatory, when he comes out from the cockpit and left no one flying inside the cockpit, guess who is flying the aircraft?

Edited by pauline35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2006 at 11:57pm

Fredi, you really loaded free!  I enjoyed that but here are some comments:

From you:"certainly it proves he is God incarnate.  you are missing one of the most important aspects of the temptation in the wilderness, which i spoke of earlier in this thread - matthew 4: 6,7 - when satan tells Christ to prove he is the Son of God by throwing himself off the pinnacle of the temple, Christ replies "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" - thus stating exactly who he is."

Before quoting "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God", there is a bold and clear statement written and that is:Matthew 4:5 "If you are the Son of God", he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

"He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."

7Jesus answered,, "It is also written:Do not put the Lord your God to test."

The above should be read and understood in continuity and it is clear from the passage that Satan knew exactly who he was trying to tempt. Satan, from the very statement confirms that Jesus was not God. Even Satan was not addressing Jesus in the above verse as "Son of God". That is why Satan said, "If you are the Son of God..."

The verse which you quoted partially does not prove that he was God or the Son of God, even under Satan's view.

Here is the same scriptural reference that you wrote and I have changed 'he' to God and removed the names of John and Matthew. See how nice and more factual that looks:

1. God is eternal

2. God gives eternal life

3. God sends angels

4. God should get our highest love (This was also said by Jesus )

5. God sets us free from sin

6. God forgives sin

7. God searches hearts and minds and knows what is in them.

8. God will repay each according to his deeds. (This confirms that deeds play an important part besides faith or Belief) 

9. God will raise people on the last day.

10. God will judge the nations.

From you: "this is a selection.  note that all the characteristics can apply to God alone, yet the Lord Jesus claimed them for himself."

I don't think it is correct to say that Jesus claimed the above for himself.

From you:"john 5: 23 is crucial - "all men should honour the Son even as they honour the Father.  he that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which sent him" - note that the Son is to be honoured even as (in the same way) as the Father.  those who will not do so do not honour the Father - here the Lord is saying clearly he is equal to the Father.  he was not the shrinking violet in the matter of making claims that some have suggested."

This is the personal opinion of the writer John himself and these are not the words, direct from the mouth of Jesus.

Best Regards

BMZ




Edited by bmzsp
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2006 at 5:45am
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

I appreciate that the God of the bible is a demonstrative God, and being such, why not just have Jesus state unequivocally that He was God, and then demonstrate this in a manner that would leave no doubt?

When God sent His Messengers and Prophets they stated that they were the Messengers and Prophets of God quite clearly. Because that was the sole purpose of sending the Messengers and Prophets. To correct and spread the Word of God. To make it clear to the believers which path they should follow. Therefore, in the face of derision and great personal danger they stated quite clearly that they were the Prophets and Messengers of God.

Yet, God comes to earth in human form, to offer salvation to all of mankind by taking their sins upon Himself, and never just stands up and states without a doubt: "I am God" and demonstrates it. 

Instead, He goes alone into the desert, and allows Himself to be tempted by Satan, whom He knows has absolutely no power over Him, because God is Omnipotent so no creature can hold power over Him. And this is supposed to prove that Jesus is God incarnate?

 

certainly it proves he is God incarnate.  you are missing one of the most important aspects of the temptation in the wilderness, which i spoke of earlier in this thread - matthew 4: 6,7 - when satan tells Christ to prove he is the Son of God by throwing himself off the pinnacle of the temple, Christ replies "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" - thus stating exactly who he is

now he did not come to walk about saying "i am God i am God i am God", although his words clearly indicate this fact, and the jews clearly understood what he meant, which is why they killed him,since for them what he said was clearly blasphemous.  and he certainly demonstrated the fact that he is God

here are some scriptures which clearly indicate who he is, in his own words

1. he is eternal -john 5: 58

2. he gives eternal life - john 10: 28

3. he sends angels - matthew 13: 41 and 24: 30,31

4. he should get our highest love - matthew 10: 37,38

5. he sets free from sin - john 8: 34,36

6. he forgives sin - matthew 9: 6

7. he searches hearts and minds - revelation 2: 23

8. he will repay each according to his deeds - revelation 2: 23

9. he will raise people on the last day - john 6: 40-44

10. he will judge the nations - matthew 35: 31,32-luke21: 36 - john 5: 22,23

this is a selection.  note that all the characteristics can apply to God alone, yet the Lord Jesus claimed them for himself

  • john 5: 23 is crucial - "all men should honour the Son even as they honour the Father.  he that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which sent him" - note that the Son is to be honoured even as (in the same way) as the Father.  those who will not do so do not honour the Father - here the Lord is saying clearly he is equal to the Father.  he was not the shrinking violet in the matter of making claims that some have suggested
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 April 2006 at 7:47pm
Hey Fredi:
Your noise indicates the anger and frustration in your makeup. Were you born without a father figure in the household. You don't need to be so darn belligerent with Khadija in selling your point. OK read the following and state your stand----

Mithraic Cult or Christianity

  
 

Mithra was a Persian savior, whose cult was the leading rival of Christianity in Rome, and more successful than Christianity for the first four centuries of the �Christian� era.  In 307 A.D., the emperor officially designated Mithra �Protector of the Empire.�  (See, Francis Legge, Forerunners and the Rivals of Christianity at 2, 271; S. Angus, The Mystery-Religions at 168)  Christians copied many details of the Mithraic mystery-religion, explaining the resemblance later with their favorite argument, that the devil had anticipated the true faith by imitating it before Christ�s birth.  Some resemblances between the two are so close that even St. Augustine declared the priests of Mithra worshipped the same deity as he did.  (See, Salomon Reinach, Orpheus at 73)

 
 

Mithra was born on December 25, called �Birthday of the Unconquered Sun,� which was finally taken over by Christians in the 4th century A.D. as the birthday of Christ.  (See, John Holland Smith, The Death of Classical Paganism at 146; John Campbell, The Mythic Image at 33)  Some said Mithra sprang from an incestuous union between the sun god and his own mother, just as Jesus, who was God, was born of the Mother of God.  Some claimed Mithra�s mother was a mortal virgin.  Others said Mithra had no mother, but was miraculously born of a female Rock, fertilized by the Heavenly Father�s phallic lightning.  (See, Amaury de Riencourt, Sex and Power in History at 135)

 
 

Mithra�s birth was witnessed by shepherds and by Magi (wisemen) who brought gifts to his sacred birth-cave of the Rock.  (See, Homer Smith, Man and His Gods at 129; S.H. Hooke, The Siege Perilous at 85; Franz Cumont, The Mysteries of Mithra at 131)  Mithra performed the usual assortment of miracles: raising the dead, healing the sick, making the blind see and the lame walk, casting out devils.  As a Peter (son of Petra) he carried keys to the kingdom of heaven.  (See, Homer Smith, Man and His Gods at 129)  His triumph and ascension to heaven were celebrated at the spring equinox (Easter), when the sun rises toward its apogee.

 
 

Before returning to heaven, Mithra celebrated a Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.  In memory of this, his worshippers partook of a sacramental meal of bread marked with a cross.  (See, S.H. Hooke, The Siege Perilous at 89; Franz Cumont, The Mysteries of Mithra at 160)  This was one of the seven Mithraic sacraments, the models for the Christians� seven sacraments.  (See, E.O. James, The Ancient Gods at 250)  It was called mizd, latin missa, English mass.  Mithra�s image was buried in a rock tomb, the same scared cave that represented his mother�s womb.  He was withdrawn from it and said to live again.  (See, Homer Smith, Man and His Gods at 130, 201)

 
 

Like early Christianity, Mithraism was an ascetic, anti-female religion.  Its priesthood consisted of celibate men only.  (See, Francis Legge, Forerunners and Rivals of Christianity at 2, 261).  Women were forbidden to enter Mithraic temples.  (See, Wolfgang Lederer, The Fear of Women at 36).  The women of Mithraic families had nothing to do with the men�s cult, but attended services of the Great Mother in their own temples of Isis, Diana or Juno.  (See, S. Angus, The Mystery-Religions at 205)  Anahita was the Mother of Waters, traditional spouse of the solar god whom she bore, loved and swallowed up.  She was identified with the Anatolian Great Goddess Ma.  Mithra was naturally coupled with her, as her opposite, a spirit of fire, light and the sun.  (See, Franz Cumont, Oriental Religions in Roman Paganism at 54, 65). Her �element,� water, overwhelmed the world in the primordial flood, when one man built an ark and saved himself, together with his cattle, according to Mithraic myth.  (See, Franz Cumont, The Mysteries of Mithra at 138).

 

 

 

What began in water would end in fire, according to the Mithraic eschatology.  The great battle between the forces of light and darkness in the Last Days would destroy the earth with its upheavals and burnings.  Virtuous ones who followed the teachings of the Mithraic priesthood would join the spirits of light and be saved.  Sinful ones who followed other teachings would be cast into hell with Ahriman and the fallen angels.  The Christian notion of salvation was almost wholly a product of this Persian eschatology, adopted by Semitic eremites and sun-cultists like the Essenes, and by Roman military men who thought the rigid discipline and vivid battle-imagery of Mithraism appropriate for warriors.  Under emperors like Julian and Commodus, Mithra became the supreme patron of Roman armies.  (See, Franz Cumont, The Mysteries of Mithra at 87-89)

 

 

 

After extensive contact with Mithraism, Christians also began to describe themselves as soldiers for Christ; to call their savior Light of the World, Helios the Rising Sun and the Sun of Righteousness; to celebrate their feasts on Sun-day rather than the Jewish Sabbath; to claim their savior�s death was marked by an eclipse of the sun; and to adopt the seven Mithraic sacraments.  Like Mithraists, Christians practiced baptism to ascend after death through the planetary spheres to the highest heaven, while the wicked (unbaptized) would be dragged down into darkness.  (See, Franz Cumont, The Mysteries of Mithra at 144-45)

 

 

 

Mithra�s cave-temple on the Vatican Hill was seized by Christians in 376 A.D.  (See, John Holland Smith, The Death of Classical Paganism at 146).   Christian bishops of Rome pre-empted even the Mithraic high priest�s title of Pater Patrum, which became Papa, or Pope.  (See, Homer Smith, Man and His Gods at 252).  Mithraism entered into many doctrines of Manichean Christianity and continued to influence its old rival for over a thousand years.  (See, Franz Cumont, Oriental Religions in Roman Paganism at 154)  The Mithraic festival of Epiphany, marking the arrival of sun-priests or Magi at the Savior�s birthplace, was adopted by the Christian church only as late as 813 A.D.  (See, H. Pomeroy Brewster, Saints and Festivals of the Christian Church at 55).



Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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