Spritual Jurisdiction of the Prophets

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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Salam Bismark,

Does this imply that Almighty God views nations highly?  Does
Almighty God value blood relationships?  If Almighty God has sent
Prophets to the Germans, the Jews, the Iroquois, the Eskimos, and the
Zulus, is that in some sense an "endorsement" of those kin-folks?
Or, is it more probably just due to behavior.  In the past, men
valued blood, and stuck together, and so if there was some group of
people going astray, they were also, but coincidentally, related by blood?
And does Almighty God only send Prophets when people are going astray?
�� fear Allah through Whom you demand your mutual
(rights), and (and do not cut of the relations of) the wombs
(kinship)�� [al-Nisa� 4:1]

�And give to the kindred his due and to the poor�� [al-Isra� 17:26]

Abu
Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Messenger of
Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 
�Allah created His creation, and
when He had finished, al-rahm (the tie of kinship) got up. He said,
�What is it?� Al-rahm said: �This is the position of one who is seeking
refuge with You from being cut off.� He said, �Will you not be pleased
if I should take care of the one who takes care of you, and cut off the
one who cuts you off?� Al-rahm said, �Of course, O Lord.� He said,
�Then it will be so.��

                  Abu Hurayrah quoted: �Would you then, if you were given the authority, do mischief in the land, and sever your ties of kinship?� [Muhammad 47:22]. (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 6948)

The ties of blood both physical and spiritual are by the command of Allah something he has placed in his creation and given us a choice to uphold or severe. Allah is the originator of all things he does not endorse as in we choose or do something and then he accepts our choice and endorses us after the fact, he created blood relations and put benefit in them for us so he blesses those who choose to act right or according to what he decrees is right.

There is a saying of our prophet, All good is from Allah and all evil is from us. 

He sends his prophets when they are needed prior to that he gives them signs or warining to guide them.
He does not favor one person over another for
simply being part of a family or tribe or nation.

Edited by rami

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rami Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549	Post Options Post Reply Quote rami Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Spritual Jurisdiction of the Prophets Posted: 13 March 2006 at 10:52pm
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem Salam Bismark, Does this imply that Almighty God views nations highly? Does Almighty God value blood relationships? If Almighty God has sent Prophets to the Germans, the Jews, the Iroquois, the Eskimos, and the Zulus, is that in some sense an "endorsement" of those kin-folks? Or, is it more probably just due to behavior. In the past, men valued blood, and stuck together, and so if there was some group of people going astray, they were also, but coincidentally, related by blood? And does Almighty God only send Prophets when people are going astray? �� fear Allah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (and do not cut of the relations of) the wombs (kinship)�� [al-Nisa� 4:1] �And give to the kindred his due and to the poor�� [al-Isra� 17:26] Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: �Allah created His creation, and when He had finished, al-rahm (the tie of kinship) got up. He said, �What is it?� Al-rahm said: �This is the position of one who is seeking refuge with You from being cut off.� He said, �Will you not be pleased if I should take care of the one who takes care of you, and cut off the one who cuts you off?� Al-rahm said, �Of course, O Lord.� He said, �Then it will be so.�� Abu Hurayrah quoted: �Would you then, if you were given the authority, do mischief in the land, and sever your ties of kinship?� [Muhammad 47:22]. (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 6948) The ties of blood both physical and spiritual are by the command of Allah something he has placed in his creation and given us a choice to uphold or severe. Allah is the originator of all things he does not endorse as in we choose or do something and then he accepts our choice and endorses us after the fact, he created blood relations and put benefit in them for us so he blesses those who choose to act right or according to what he decrees is right. There is a saying of our prophet, All good is from Allah and all evil is from us. He sends his prophets when they are needed prior to that he gives them signs or warining to guide them. He does not favor one person over another for simply being part of a family or tribe or nation. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

Bismarck Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bismarck Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 March 2006 at 7:00pm
	Afterwrit: One other quick point, if I may. Does Islam recognize, by name, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Hosea, etc as Prophets to the Jews? I understand Islam would say, even so, that they were Prophets only unto the Jews and that anything they say is certainly, now, "subordinated" or "trumped", just to be blunt, by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)'s ministry. And how does Islam view Prophethood. When writing up a sermon, or while building a theological argument, Christians will frequently quote from Isaiah (c.700 BCE), Jeremiah (c.600 BCE), and Ezra (c.400 BCE) all together to make their case. Would Islam say this is a fundamental misunderstanding of how Prophethood works? Would Islam say that quoting prophets that are generations apart would be, roughly at least, akin to quoting from both the Holy Qu'ran and the New Testament? Even though the former trumps the latter? From an Islamic perspective, do, just to be blunt, Christians have a fundamental misunderstanding of how and what Prophethood is? Just as Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) trumps Issa the Messiah (PBUH), so too would Jeremiah (c. 600 BCE) trump Isaiah (c. 700 BCE)? Of course, I don't think either Isaiah or Jeremiah would trump Moses (PBUH), who came before them both. But Moses was a "Law Giving" Prophet. What is the difference? A "Law Giving" Prophet has an even greater authority than a non-Law Giver? So, would a Muslim say that from the time of Moses (PBUH) up until that of Issa (PBUH), the Laws of Moses always stood... But Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel and everyone else provided "guidance" and tried to "steer" the Jews back to Moses (PBUH)... until Issa (PBUH) came with, in part, a New Law that trumped Moses (PBUH)... (and of course Muhammad (PBUH) trumps both)? At root, I am asking about the Nature of Prophethood. I understand these may sound like "academic" questions but I would truly love to know. Thanks again in advance for your time, Bismarck

Bismarck Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bismarck Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 March 2006 at 6:44pm
	Salam Rami, Thank you for the clarification. When you say that Issa was a Prophet to the Jewish nation... And that Almighty God has sent Prophets to all other nations as well... Does this imply that Almighty God views nations highly? Does Almighty God value blood relationships? If Almighty God has sent Prophets to the Germans, the Jews, the Iroquois, the Eskimos, and the Zulus, is that in some sense an "endorsement" of those kin-folks? Or, is it more probably just due to behavior. In the past, men valued blood, and stuck together, and so if there was some group of people going astray, they were also, but coincidentally, related by blood? And does Almighty God only send Prophets when people are going astray? I understand these might be "philosophical" questions, but is there anything that can be said? Bismarck

rami Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549	Post Options Post Reply Quote rami Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 March 2006 at 11:26pm
	Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem Salam Bismark, Is this true? Yes this is true he was sent to all of creation not just mankind, the arabic word for mankind also includes non human being in its meaning. Verily, Allah, azza wa jall, has said in the Qur'an (what means): "Say (O Muhammad SAAW): O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah - to Whom belongs the dominion of the Heavens and the Earth. La illaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger (SAAW), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believes in Allah and His Words, and follow him so that you may be guided." [Al-A'raf: 158]. The prophet (SAAW) said (what means): "And the Prophets were formerly sent to their people only, whereas I have been sent to all mankind." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]. If so, Islam says that "All mankind is under the Spiritual Jurisdiction of Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) ministry" in some sense. Of course, Almighty God is always the final authority, but in some sense. They are to follow the religion that was given to him, he will intercede for all of creation on the day of judgment which indicates his position with allah in relation to the rest of creation. He will be the first to interced for everyone then the prophets will in interced for there own nations. Tirmidhi (gharib): Ibn `Abbas narrates: "Some people close to the Prophet came and waited for him. When he came out he approached them and heard them saying: What a wonder it is that Allah Almighty and Glorious took one of His creation as His intimate Friend -- Ibrahim -- while another one said: What is more wonderful than His speech to Musa, to whom He spoke directly! Yet another one said: And `Isa is Allah's word and His spirit, while another one said: Adam was chosen by Allah. The Prophet said: I heard your words, and everything you said is indeed true, and I myself am the Beloved of Allah (habibullah) and I say this without pride, and I carry the flag of glory on the Day of Judgment and am the first intercessor and the first whose intercession is accepted, and the first to stir the circles of Paradise so that Allah will open it for me and I shall enter it together with the poor among my Community, and I say this without pride. I am the most honored of the First and the Last and I say this without pride." What does Islam say about Issa (PBUH)? "He was a Prophet to the Jews"? Does that mean that all non-Jews are exempt from his teachings? Here you are taking the word jews to mean a race of people while it is also a religion, so if you were to follow judaism the religion you do not have to be of the 12 tribes of judah. So in that respect any christian who follows the teaching of jesus (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) is of the Ummah/ nation of Jesus. You have to remember that back then many people were on the religion of there forefathers regardless of what it was but some were guided to the truth and adopted that religion. Allah judges you by what is in your heart or what you believe regardless of your tribe. There were many christian tribes in the prophet muhammads (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) time which were arab egyption or other races and he considered them to be christian or people of the Book as allah refers to them in the Quran. But Almighty God saw fit only to send a "global Prophet" in Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) only c. 610 CE. Therefore, all mankind has been called, directly, only since that time? Anything the non-Jewish world picked up prior to 610 CE is extra, and bonus points, but in some sense "superfluous"? Each nation prior to islam was sent a messenger to guide it to the truth, so each nation had there guidance from Allah. After Allah sent messengers and prophets to each of the nations of the World He finaly sent his last messenger and made him a Prophet to All mankind ie there last chance at guidance after they had rejected the messengers that had been sent to them. The non jewish world could have learnt from jesus if they chose and they would have been considered his followers but his mission was to the jewish people, he said i was sent but to the lost tribes of israil (or something similar) that was his mission there is nothing in that prohibiting his followers after his time spreading the truth but his job was to guide the jewish people back to light it was there last chance with Allah as he has sent them neumorous other messengers beffore him which they persecuted and killed. Up untill his time Allah considered them his chosen people on earth he was trying to guide them back. You read the manuscript. How is it relevant to you? If I could similarly replicate the pure originals of all 24 Hebrew Prophets (Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc), how relevant would they be to you? Our prophet came with esentialy the same message as the other abrahamic faiths but if you look at there teachings from his time to our prophet, Allah made some things prohibited while others he made permisable, eg alchohol and pork. So the other scriptures would be accepted as revelation but we could not follow them in matters of law or sipritual guadance as the Quran abrogates prior revelation while confirming other parts of it. You have to also understand that each prior revelation was specific for a group of people, for there benefit primarily while the Quran is for all of mankind, the miracle of our prophet was the Quran and it is a shifa/healing and guidance for all of mankind. Bluntly put, does Islam say that (non-Jewish) Christians are applying to themselves a message that Almighty God only intended for the Jews? as i said above a revelation sent to a specific people is for the ultimate benefit of those people as allah is considereing there nature/charachter/habits/spirituality, this doesnt stop others from following it and i am not saying Allah will not accept the religion of non jewish christians at that the time of revelation but it was not intended for All mankind. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

Bismarck Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bismarck Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 March 2006 at 7:20pm
	I understand that Islam holds that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the first Prophet Almighty God sent explicitly to all mankind. Is this true? If so, Islam says that "All mankind is under the Spiritual Jurisdiction of Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) ministry" in some sense. Of course, Almighty God is always the final authority, but in some sense. What does Islam say about Issa (PBUH)? "He was a Prophet to the Jews"? Does that mean that all non-Jews are exempt from his teachings? Of course, of course, Issa (PBUH) was a great Prophet, his words were God-Breathed, and a non-Jew could still learn a great deal from his teachings. If a non-Jew did so, they could have heard the Words of God 600 years before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). That would be a bonus. But Almighty God saw fit only to send a "global Prophet" in Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) only c. 610 CE. Therefore, all mankind has been called, directly, only since that time? Anything the non-Jewish world picked up prior to 610 CE is extra, and bonus points, but in some sense "superfluous"? I am not trying to be divisive. I am trying to be clear. Let me ask this question one more way. Let's say you are a Muslim. And let us say I give you the perfect, unaltered, God-Breathed original text of the Book of Jeremiah from the Hebrew Old Testament. Almighty God Himself authenticates the text. So you as a Muslim are fully convinced that you are reading the exact direct God-Breathed words Almighty God spoke through Jeremiah the Prophet (PBUH) to the Jews c.600 BCE. You read the manuscript. How is it relevant to you? If I could similarly replicate the pure originals of all 24 Hebrew Prophets (Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc), how relevant would they be to you? If they were "Prophets to the Jews"... how relevant were their messages to non-Jews? Bluntly put, does Islam say that (non-Jewish) Christians are applying to themselves a message that Almighty God only intended for the Jews? If non-Jewish Christians can truly gain by "eavesdropping" on God's communication, through Issa (PBUH), to the Jews, hey, fine, that's great... But non-Jews have never actually been under Issa's (PBUH) spiritual jurisdiction?