universe shaped like a trumpet

Bismillah,

Interesting discussion.  I do believe that Kim is a fine name.  Definitely a keeper!

Hi All, Nadir posted the above reply to me personally, too, so I sent him a reply. Now I will share it with you, too.  :)

-- Previous Private Message --
Sent by : nadir
Sent : 2005 05 May at 6:53am

Assalaamu alaikum

Sorry Kim , you misunderstood me, I wanted you to pick a Muslim name for yourself, so that I might know your personality a little better�..

Just to pick up on a point you make, I think the thing is about humans making choices is that, if those choices are made without any moral obligation (to God), others may be hurt by the choices made.

<kim> Yes, but that's just the point. We have to learn to make choices that _don't_ hurt others and the "others" have to learn to cope with life in a positive and fulfulling way even if they _are_ hurt. Do you see what I mean? We ALL have to make choices and I believe we make them freely. If we are all just robots with no choice then A) what is religion for anyway? God already knows what we are going to do because we never had any choice in the first place, and B) how can he punish us for ANYTHING AT ALL if we have no free will or choice?

 Hence do you not think that it would be better if people ended up finding God, but through others help, rather than their hindrance (or a bit of both)?

<kim> Both.

Billions of years sounds a lot, but you might want to take into consideration, the fact that Allah (SWT) Created Time, and hence He is beyond - Time & No Time. Hence the concept of Creating and then letting everything just happen is a bit iffy, as if time exists only within Allah�s Creation, and not the place where He dwells, then in the place He dwells everything has already happened (sorry I am already feeling this is going to baffle your intellect, hence see if you are able to reflect upon these words in the place of non-intellect).

<kim> Oi! Are you calling me stupid? I can fully understand if God is beyond time and space and whatever - he'd have been pretty bored if he had experience time in Real Time, I'm sure! But God has to set up time for humans in order that everything doesn't happen all at once ;) And he knows we need time to learn and to, well, just exist!

I agree that it is good to marvel over Allah�s (SWT) creation, however I hope you realise that peoples intentions can be very obscure.

<kim> Yes, but again, I think that's the point. We all have to learn to live with each other, even if we don't understand everything and everyone.

Kim...

Wasalaam

nadir

Hi, I don't understand why you seem to think I need to choose a Muslim name for you, since you seem to have a perfectly good one already.  

I think I am a bit of a strange creature sometimes - I have no problems believing that God, the Big Bang theory, the "weird shape of the universe theory" and the theory of evolution all exist at once.

Faith in God appears to be worthless unless it is given freely. ie: people have freedom of choice in their lives. I hate to sound like a fence-sitter, but it occurs to me that God may actually have given humans to right and the ability to make choices, for right or wrong, and the Big Challenge might be that despite all the bad choices and the bad things that happen in the world, that people Find God anyway. Freely and through their own choices. If God is omnipotent and All-seeing, then God has the ability to let us make our own choices and He can see all the different consequences and knows what will happen to us anyway.

Now, admittedly, I have grown up believing the theory of evolution all my life, so I am biased of course, but I really believe that if God exists, He gave the universe the basic building blocks, then let the whole thing develop and evolve over billions of (our) years. SO much more interesting than just clicking His fingers and making everything just "appear" out of nothing. Stuff _still_ appeared out of nothing, of course, but with the invention of a few parameters like the laws of physics, everything else developed.

Is that just a terrible thing? As far as I can see, the more scientists discover, the more things we have to marvel at and go "wow - look how amazing God is!"

Kim...