Who is the comforter

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Topic: Who is the comforter
Posted: 02 October 2018 at 6:20pm

JerryMyers wrote:

The phrase "a virgin" which we find in the English-translated Bibles today does not appear in the original Hebrew text. The word used is 'almah’ meaning "a young woman of marriageable age". The Hebrew word for "virgin" is ‘bthuwlah’. When the Hebrew text was translated into Greek in the NT, it uses the word ‘parthenos’, which has a dual meaning; a young girl or a virgin. The translators have chosen the latter for obvious reasons. More recent and accurate versions of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version present this verse as follows:
"Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"Isaiah 7:14 (RSV). So, how sure are you Isaiah 7:14 was referring to the virgin birth Jesus ??

Why are you quibbling over 'almah' and 'betulah' when Muslims themselves believe in he virgin birth ? And you are wrong about NT translations changing the meaning of virgin. The Jewish Septuagint translates it as παρθένος (parthenos), which means -"virgin". Greek is far more a grammatically precise language than Hebrew as well. The Jewish Septuagint was done long before the NT.

2Acts

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Posted: 02 October 2018 at 6:10pm

JerryMyers wrote:

Hi jp the Unitarian,

Sin is a choice and you cannot inherit a choice.

You cannot inherit a choice. But you can inherit the consequences of a choice.

2Acts

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Posted: 30 September 2018 at 3:17pm

JerryMyers wrote:

2Acts wrote:

You have not even addressed let alone refuted any of the points I made! Why ? Because you cant! So what was Jesus saying ? Oh yes I see now, he said ... "there is no god but God and Mohammad is the messenger of God." How silly of me ! How could I not see it ! Not ! Take your Muslim sun glasses off and read the Bible without the influence of your Mullahs and you may learn something.

On the contrary, I have refuted ALL your points, BUT, we all know you cannot even understand your own scripture so how could you understand my refutations of your ‘points’ ??

And yes, that’s very silly of you as how could Jesus have said Muhammad is the Messenger of God when he was long gone before Muhammad was even born ??!! So much for your ‘rule of HISTORICAL BACKGROUND’ as a criteria to understand the Bible !! See what I mean when I said you cannot even understand your own scripture let alone to understand my refutations of your ‘points’?? I guess that's why you keep on ‘parroting’ that I have not addressed or refuted your ‘points’.

Nevertheless, Jesus did say “The Lord, your God, the Lord is ONE” meaning there is no god BUT only ONE God Almighty. So, yes, he did say “there’s no god BUT God”. Surely, that's not difficult to understand even for someone like you, or is it ??

So, heed your own advice, take your Christian sun glasses off and read the Bible without the influence of your so-called preachers and scholars (who listen to other people’s words, not Jesus) and you may learn something.

Obviously you miss my sarcasm. Maybe Jesus was actually saying ISIS will herald another Muslim Golden Age ? As you like to read what ever you like into the Bible maybe you will find flying saucers carrying the Golden Tablets of the Quran ?!

Sure Jesus said “The Lord is one.” So what ? Jesus also referred to himself as the “Son of God “ (John 10.36) implying eternal divinity. No contradiction there. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean you should deny it.

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Posted: 30 September 2018 at 3:13pm

JerryMyers wrote:

2Acts wrote:

You've already had the doctrine of original sin explained to you. See Proverbs 22.15, Luke 11:13,Psalm 14.2-3,Genesis 8.21.

The doctrine of original sin explained to me ??!! Hardly ! But you did confirm how confused you are about sin ! Anyway, let’s go thru the verses you quoted above which you said (or implied) to ‘explain’ original sin –

“Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far away” – Proverbs 22:15

This is not about inheriting sin from Adam, but, it’s saying foolishness are (normally) found in children, but discipline can straighten them up. In other words, discipline have to be taught at a young age if not, the foolishness (which is normal expectation in children) will dwell in them and continue into their adulthood.

“If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” – Luke 11:13 - How is this about original sin ?? Care to explain ?

“The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one”. – Psalm 14:2-3

Try reading in context from verse 1 – ‘The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good”’. So, Psalm 14:2-3, in general, is also referring to those who do not believe in God, which David refer to as fools, it's NOT a reference to whole mankind. So, how could Psalm 14:2-3 be about original sin when it's addressed only to those who do not believe in God, NOT whole mankind ! Do you believe in God, 2Acts ??

“The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done” – Genesis 8:21

‘Evil’ here is a reference to disobeying God which is what humans are incline to do because to them to obey all of God’s Commands is impossible to do. Truth is it's not impossible as only those who are strong-willed, discipline, have total faith in God Almighty and truly understand God’s intention for mankind existence can abide by all of His Commands.

Yes, the inclination to disobey God is from childhood and that’s why Proverbs 22:15 talks about ‘the rod of discipline’ can drive away the folly in children as children are normally foolish (in their choices, decisions) due to the fact that their minds have not been fully developed to understand good and evil. Again, Genesis 8:21 is not about original sin and moreover, it clearly said “every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood” NOT ‘from birth’ meaning, everyone is born perfect, sinless but it’s our upbringing, the environment, the company we keep, etc, that eventually will determine whether we maintain this state of perfection or not.

2Acts wrote:

And you are wrong in saying he never said he came to die for the sins of mankind. See John 11.25 and 12.44-50.

No, I am not wrong but you are. When Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25), he was responding to Martha who had said earlier she knew her brother will rise again at the last day, that is, the day of the Resurrection. This tell us that Jesus, in saying “I am the resurrection” was also referring to the Day of the Resurrection of the last day as he was responding to Martha’s statement. There’s not a single verse in the whole passage of John 11 that implied Martha was referring to Jesus’ 'death and resurrection’ and Jesus was responding accordingly to that.

As for John 12:44-50, where did you see Jesus was saying or implying he came to die for the sins of mankind ?? Care to point that out ??

Proverbs 22.15 not about inheriting sin from Adam? Yes it is. If children did not have a predisposition to the sin inherited from Adam then then verse would read “folly is NOT bound up in the heart of a child”. And no “normally” about it. And yes the rod of discipline will drive it away, but never extinguish it. The words “Ivveleth” in Proverbs 22.15 is clear in its context. A lack of piety is evil. And as Proverbs 22.15 implies, it is bound up in the heart of children.

You ask how is Luke 11.13 about original sin. Jesus said-

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him? (Lk 11:13).

The Greek expression poneroi hyparchontes. Poneroi is defined in the Greek lexicon as “bad, of a bad nature or condition.” And hyparchontes is translated as “from the very beginning” or “being inherently.” Hence the power of sin in the world that influences humanity.

Regarding Psalm 14. 2-3. Good try, but wrong again. “The Lord looks down from heaven on ALL MANKIND to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. ALL have turned away, ALL have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one”. – Psalm 14:2-3.

You seem confused. You contradict yourself. First you say humans cannot obey all of Gods commands and then you say it's not impossible? Make up your mind. Which one is it ? And yes the rod of discipline in Proverbs 22.15 is clear. It will drive it away only, but never extinguish it.

In Genesis 8.21 the verse is clear. A curse resides on the earth. The Hebrew for youth here is “ neh-oo-raw” - meaning the state of juvenility of the person .ie. their early life. The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The point being it refers to the early part of ones life that exists before the person is accountable for their own actions as an adult.

Anyway whether sin originates ‘at birth” or not is not really the point as it has nothing to do with guilt or moral culpability per se, but rather all are born with the need to deal with the powerful force of sin in the world. Hence the idea of “original sin” does not specifically relate to the age of an individual but rather to the collective weakness of humanity. A curse.

No sin that is committed is without its effect. Every sin that you and I commit -- every sin that is ever committed disrupts the entire cosmos. Your sin has an effect not only on you but on everyone and everything else. Is it realistic to claim, as Muslims do, that Adam and Eve's sin, the first of the human race had no effects in the world into which all other human beings were born? I don't think so. If you don't want to call it “original sin,” then call it something else, but we have to accept the fact that we all suffer the consequences of what Adam and Eve did.

Regarding John 11:25 -27 -Jesus says “I am the resurrection and the life.The one who believes in me will live, even though they die". This is obviously far more than just Jesus saying he is some kind of “sign of the resurrection”.

It goes on where Martha says -“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.” What does this mean. It means Martha recognizes Jesus as … The Son of God and the Messiah. And anyone who knows the Jewish prophecies regarding the Messiah knows The Messiah has divine and eternal qualities. Obviously Martha knew the prophecies better than you.

In regards to John 12.44-50 it needs to be read in the context of all of John 12. Particularly from verse 23 -

The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified… Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

Clearly all of this is about the salvation that Jesus provides through his death and sacrifice.

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Posted: 30 September 2018 at 3:08pm

JerryMyers wrote:

2Acts wrote:

You misunderstand Christian doctrine. Christians do not believe God is literally Jesus's biological Father and biologically fathered a son.

Maybe. Then, explain how did Christians come to believe Jesus is of the same substance as God and in fact, is THE Son of God too ?

How did Christians believe Jesus is of the same substance as God and in fact, is The Son of God too ? Firstly human beings are the only part of the creation made in God's image. There is nothing else in the creation that has Almighty Gods divine pattern and blessing apart from us as humans. So in a sense we all have an aspect of the divine within us.

Consider the sun as an analogy. The sun radiates heat and light. Heat and light are not the sun but are of the sun.

Jesus Christ was God's radiant eminence that became flesh. Son means “heir”. It does not mean God literally had a physical “son” as an offspring , but by heir it means He Inherited all of creation as a gift, and believers are co-heirs with Him. It makes far more sense that God would reveal Himself through a human than in some kind of “recitation” that is supposed to be a copy of “golden tablets in heaven”.

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Posted: 30 September 2018 at 3:05pm

JerryMyers wrote:

2Acts wrote:

You got that wrong, most Muslims are Muslim by design not personal choice. They are afraid to make a personal decision away from Islam for fear of apostasy. And most Muslims don’t even know or read the Quran.

Maybe you misunderstood me. When I said ‘most Muslims are Muslim by design not personal choice', I mean they are Muslims by birth because they are born into a Muslim family. The same thing can be said of most Christians too. ‘By personal choice’ would mean that you are Muslim because you had study Islam and Christianity (and others) thoroughly and realized rationally, despite what scholars had said, God is ONLY ONE and no man can claim to be God or equate himself to God. So, it’s not about ‘fear of apostasy’, but it’s about rational thinking based on what God said in the Quran and based on what Jesus really said in the Bible and not about what other people said.

2Acts wrote:

The article you posted was interesting. What was interesting was the quote –

“Professor Askari noted that “many countries that profess Islam and are called Islamic are unjust, corrupt, and underdeveloped and are in fact not ‘Islamic’ by any stretch of the imagination.”

So Western (Christian / secular) countries are more “Islamic” due to being just, non corrupt, developed and prosperous. And the reasons being due to the stability from their Christian heritage and secular ad-ministration. Nothing else. That probably explains why Muslims are falling over themselves to escape failed Muslim societies and live in the West.

Yes, maybe so, but, here’s where you can see the cunning master plan of Satan and the subtle execution of that master plan. The main objective of Satan is to bring mankind away from God Almighty. With Christianity, Satan managed to do just that – he succeeded to bring majority of Christians to worship a man as God when they should be worshiping only God Almighty. While Satan was unsuccessful to do that with Muslims, he succeeded in drawing majority of them away from truly following the life God Almighty want mankind to live by, that is, live harmoniously and prosperously, be just, no corruptions, etc. Thus, it's not surprising today, you see a more ‘Islamic’ way of life in non-Muslim majority countries than you see in Muslim-majority countries. To quote an Egyptian jurist, Muhammad Abduh (1849-1905) – “I went to the West and saw Islam, but no Muslims; I got back to the East and saw Muslims, but not Islam”.

So, what does this all tell us ? It tells us Muslims need to go back to the true teaching of the Quran on the administration of community living, human relationship, and Christians need to go back to the true teaching of Jesus in understanding who Jesus Christ really is and his relationship with God Almighty.

You ask me to explain how did Christians believe Jesus is of the same substance as God and in fact, is THE Son of God too ? Firstly human beings are the only part of the creation made in God's image. There is nothing else in the creation that has Almighty Gods divine pattern and blessing apart from us as humans. So in a sense we all have an aspect of the divine within us.

Consider the sun as an analogy. The sun radiates heat and light. Heat and light are not the sun but are of the sun. Jesus Christ was God's radiant eminence that became flesh. Son means “heir”. It does not mean God literally had a physical “son” as an offspring , but by heir it means He Inherited all of creation as a gift, and believers are co-heirs with Him. It makes far more sense that God would reveal Himself through a human than in some kind of “recitation” that is supposed to be a copy of “golden tablets in heaven”.

I disagree that most Christians are Christian because they are born into Christian families rather than rational thinking. This is the case for Muslims however. Christians are far better educated than Muslims and because Christianity developed and currently exists in a highly educated free thinking and free speaking Western modern society they are far more likely than Muslims to make decisions based on rational thought. The same cannot be said of Muslims. Islam is still constrained by Medieval thought where free thought and speech is not encouraged due to fears of blasphemy and apostasy.

Just face it. Any Muslim who was to take an unbiased reading of the Bible, who comes to see Jesus as the Messiah who was prophesied, who come into spiritual “sonship” to The One Most High God through the Son and be liberated from dead Islamic religious laws, would be persecuted or executed for apostasy. It’s a fact ! Why is Islam so insecure? What are Muslims afraid of ?

Oh the cunning master plan of Satan ! Of course, how convenient. So rather than Muslims taking personal responsibility for their own failings and for the failings of Islam you come up with some convenient rationalisation. This is why Islam is such a mess because Muslims fail to take responsibility for their own failings. Are Christians also under some Cunning master plan of Satan? As explained above. Christians do not worship a man as God but rather a The Son of God.

Why is there more of a blessing on Western nations rather than Muslim nations? Because of the stability and prosperity that Western nations have inherited from their Christian heritage and secular administration. Muslims will never go back to “true teaching of the Quran” or the administration of community and human relationships. They never have and they never will. Islam under Mohamad was a failure. It was simply a time of war and slavery. Nothing special about it.

The so called Muslim “Golden Age” under the “four rightly guided caliphs” was not a time of true teaching. Three of the four caliphs were murdered and it was a time of Islamic civil war. No “paradise” there. Let me ask you who has tried to return to the true teachings and community lately ? Oh yes , that’s right, ISIS. And why will Islam never find the “true Islamic way”. Because human nature is such that externally imposed religious laws will ever be enough.

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Posted: 15 September 2018 at 7:41pm

To JerryMeyers.

"Why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel?"

Answer: In the prophecy of the virgin birth, Isaiah 7:14, the prophet Isaiah declared, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel." This prophecy refers to the birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:22-23, "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel' which means, 'God with us.'" This does not mean, however, that the Messiah’s name would actually be Immanuel.

There are many names given to Jesus using the phrase “He shall be called,” both in the Old and New Testaments. This was a common way of saying that people would refer to Him in these various ways. Isaiah prophesied of the Messiah, “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6). None of these titles was Jesus’ actual name, but these were descriptions people would use to refer to Him forever. Luke tells us Jesus “shall be called the Son of the Highest” (Luke 1:32) and “son of God” (1:35), but neither of these was His name.

In two different places, the prophet Jeremiah says in referring to the coming Messiah, “And this is His name by which He shall be called, YHWH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (Jeremiah 23:5-6; 33:15-16). Now we know that God, the Father, is named Yahweh. Jesus was never actually called Yahweh as though it was His name, but His role was that of bringing the righteousness of Yahweh to those who would believe in Him, exchanging that righteousness for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this is one of the many titles or “names” which belong to Him.

In the same way, to say that Jesus would be called "Immanuel" means Jesus is God and that He dwelt among us in His incarnation and that He is always with us. Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus was God making His dwelling among us (John 1:1,14). No, Jesus' name was not Immanuel, but Jesus was the meaning of Immanuel, "God with us." Immanuel is one of the many titles for Jesus, a description of who He is.

Your explanation of virgin birth is not a detailed answer, Why specific Jesus? 300 prophecies pin point to Jesus and nothing to Muhammad, Why specific Jesus? Muslims belief He was only a mere prophet lower than Muhammad.

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