Rationality in the Trinity

George,

From you:

My question: The Jews were promised a Messiah. How was that changed to mean a King Messiah?

Your answer, George: You have never heard of the King of the Jews?

I have heard about the God of Jews, you tell me about the King of Jews, George.

I wrote, George: I believe in what Jesus said in his own words which I derive from the gospels but I am not bound to accept all the statements and opinions and narrations of a writer of the gospel, when there were four of them, each telling his account of others' accounts.

You wrote: Your choice, but it is very important that you read the reaction of the Jews and Jesus' disciples to his words. You put faith in the Hadith Collections do you not?

The reaction of the Jews and the disciples was natural because they knew well that a Messiah, the prophet was to come. They were never foretold that a God would be sent. They weren't expecting that because they were never taught. Only one disciple is reported to have said,"my lord, My God.", which by the way did not mean that the disciple accepted him as his God.

The Hadith collection in Islam has been kept totally aside fro Qur'aan. Qur'aan stands Supreme. Hadith is a collection of sayings from the prophet and others. The faith is in God Almighty. If there is some incorrect reporting in Hadith literature, I am free not to accept it.

But in the case of the Bible, you have a problem. Bible contains more Hadith of many prophets of yore, Musa and Essa narrated by various men who wrote and named it Bible. It is simply a bibliography. However, I can find the words of God easily and also find the words and opinions written by various men.

From you, George: We are talking about Jesus.  The Jesus in the Qur'an is incomplete.  You need the Gospels to know who Jesus is and you need the rest of the New Testament to find out what the followers of Jesus thought about who he is."

Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel. He did not bring any new doctrine of his own. His key message was "Worship thy Lord, thy God with all your mind, heart and soul." Qur'aan just confirms that. It just tells us that the Messiah was NOT the son of God and it tells us that Messiah Jesus was the son of Mary. It tells us that Jesus was conceived at the Command of God, without any man touching her or anyone entering her. It tells us that he told the Children of Israel what God had always wanted. What more do we want to know about him, George? We are happy with that.

from you, George: "You belief that Jesus was a prophet annointed by Allah and nothing more.  You don't accept Jesus as Messiah in the sense of the one promised to come.  Should I get some of your previous statements on this subject, BMZ?  You know I can do that.  Should I start calling you "Buggs" for Buggs Bunny instead of "Spot."  The Buggs jumps from one side of the fence to the other.  Can't seem to make up his mind."

George, When I respond to you, I write a post specifcally in response tailored to you. You brought up the word Messiah in Qur'aan and I responded by accomodating that word in my explanation. In other words Qur'aan is simply telling the Christians that the Messiah Jesus that they claim to be a God is nothing but just the son of Maryam (Mary).

Here is something strange. In your confusion, you call Jesus, the God, one of the Gods in the Godhead, the Son of God, the Son of Man, Before Abraham I am or Before Abraham I was (which does not make any sense at all as the sentence is incomplete), the Alpha & the Omega, the Light of the World, the Messiah, the King Messiah, the King of Jews and 100% Human and 100% God. According to you he is everything, which just is not right. Jesus is even not from Isaiah or David at all. You never called him Immanuel and yet you are able to call him in so many ways?

You still have to keep on looking, trying to justify who Jesus was and is, even till today. Jesus cannot be all of the above that I mentioned. Qur'aan makes it so simple by saying that he was the son of Mary, which is more factual, he was a prophet sent to Bani Israel (Children of Israel) and denies that he was killed. I find this very easy to believe. 

From you, George: "A Jew is a Jew by birth. Some of them are experts in the Torah and the Hebrew Scriptures written in Hebrew.  The only difference is that they disagree with the rest of the Jews."

Well, to me it is important and clear that the Jews do NOT agree at all with the Christians.

I wrote: Believing that Jesus claimed divinity is NO good reasoning. It has to be either that Jesus said plainly that he was Divine or simply he did not. It does not prove that he was Divine by saying that he claimed, which he himself did not say.This was the opinion of scholars after he was long gone.

You wrote, George: You are incorrect.  All Jesus' disciples believed in his divinity and claims to divinity.  His divinity was validated by God.

His divinity was NOT validated by God. period. It is men's opinion that he "claimed". Still the word "claim" is being mentioned.

From you, George: Yes, the Father is the "boss."  I said that.  There are not two separate beings; there is only one Being.  We cannot separate God from his word or his spirit, anymore than I can separate my word or my spirit from me.  I am surprised at you, BMZ.  How could you have read so much about the concept of the Trinity and remembered none of it?

George, you talk of One God and yet comprehend in terms of three!

From you, George: "And, you are forgetting the Jesus was also human."

I have always remembered him and still remember him as a human being, a true and a faithful servant of God !

Hope this helped and you must have realised that there is nothing from Dr. Naik or Deedat in my post. I write on my own.

zulqarnain wrote: First of all is the writing only in red, yours?

If you are talking to me, yes. 

[QUOTE=zulqarnain]Answer by Dr. Naik

Position of Jesus (peace be on him) in Islam:

(i)
Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (pbuh). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh).

What does "believe in Jesus" mean?  I think it is more accurate to say that your article of faith is to recognize that Jesus was a prophet.  So do Christians.  But if you are commanded to believe in Jesus, then you must believe all that he was and you will find that in the Gospels and that includes that he was the King Messiah.

You can't believe in someone you don't fully know.

(ii)
We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt).

(iii)
We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe.

(iv)
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (pbuh).

Not according to what I have read on this forum.  You believe that Jesus was just another annointed one, but you do not believe that he was the long-hoped for Messiah that the Christians believe he was and you do not believe what the Jews believe about this long-hoped for Messiah and are still waiting for.

It is interesting that the Qur'an mentions the word Messiah when speaking of Jesus, but does not give any other annointed one that title.


(v)
We believe that he gave life to the dead with God�s permission.

(iv)
We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God�s permission.

II
CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY:

1.
Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed Divinity

Christians and Messanic Jews believe that he did claim divinity.

C

y ask, if both Muslims and Christians love and respect Jesus (pbuh), where exactly is the parting of ways? The major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Christians� insistence on the supposed divinity of Christ (pbuh). A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):

(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28] 

This statement does not conflict with the concept of the Trinity.  Perhaps Naik does not understand the concept.  The Father is the greater in office.  The Father gives commands and the son follows them.  We believe in One God, one Being to relates to us in three ways.

) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "�I cast out devils by the Spirit of God�."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "�I with the finger of God cast out devils�."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [The Bible, John 5:30] 

None of the above conflicts with the concept of the Trinity.

If you believe in Jesus, why don't you follow him?