Animal sacrifices and the Koran

George,

(You)  �A Christian would tell you how and when that came about.�

(Me)  �Not meaning to be indelicate here, but I think the issue should be forthrightly addressed.  Does the Christian �solution� involve a (granted, perfect) human sacrifice?�

For now, I have answered my own insistent question.  In the absence of objections, the answer is apparently �yes,� the, or at least �a� Christian solution does involve a perfect and final human sacrifice (of Jesus).  Thanks to some of the links that you provided (to Angel) in another thread, I have found a Christian �think tank� that, remarkably free of obfuscation, is willing to tell me just how and when that came about.

I am still studying this document, or rationale, and it seems the author accepts, prima facie, that the �Vicarious Atonement� of Jesus was a human sacrifice.  In the main (of this article), he addresses the issue of whether or not the sacrifice was �legal� according to the Torah of Moses.  Needless to say, but I shall say it anyway, I don�t think the author got Maimonides� (his disciples�) stamp of approval concerning his final findings.

At any rate, here it is, �A great question: Was Jesus� death a violation of the commandment against human sacrifice?:� http://www.christian-thinktank.com/sacra.html.  For those who don�t want to read it, it seems the answer, according to this author, is �no.�

Servetus

Fredi,

�� but that [fig-leaves] was not enough for God - he made them [Adam and Eve] coverings from animal skins, indicating a sacrifice of blood�

Please provide a reference.  Thank you.

Servetus

Andalus wrote: George wrote: Andalus wrote: George wrote: Anyone who has read the Hebrew Bible knows that God instituted the sacrifice of animals for atonement of sins.  There were many such sacrifices mentioned in the Jewish Scriptures. Do Muslims do this, too?  If not, why not? Greetings George. The Hebrew Scriptures incorporates various methods to seek the Mercy of Gd. As an exmaple, a wheat offering is as equal as an animal offering when it comes to sin. Not all sin was covered by sacrifice, and Gd, Allah, allowed for other methods to seek His Mercy: giving to charity and sincere repentance are other viable forms of seeking His Mercy. In Islam, one finds similar method for seeking His Mercy. The rituals of sacrifice surrounded the temple, and a covenant with Gd. This covenant no longer exists, so many of the specific rituals do not exist and are not recognized by Islam. However, general concepts have not changed.   Greetings to you too Andalus, The sacrificial system was never abolished according to the Jews and according to them it still exists.  The Koran does not explain why Muslims are not under the system and I would think that would have been explained in full by Allah. Greetings George, thanks for the sincere reply. The sacrifical system is, at least temporarily, abolished. There are some passages that speak of the reutrn to the sacrifial system in the "messianic" age. The Jews would not concur that their covenant is finished. I would suspect that anyone who was follwing the covenant of Noah up until the time of Moses might not have readily accepted the new covenant if that covenant had been extended universally. Of course that is al theory but the concept is the same. I believe the covenant is finished between the Jews and Gd due to the fact that they have not had a prophet for roughly 2400 years. The silence has been so long that secular Jews had to invent their notion of Zionism in order to forego any waiting for a prophet to tell them the "exhile" is over, which is how it has worked in the past. Not even a sign has been given. Forcing an end to exhile through terrorism and acting like animals does not prove that Gd still has a covenant with them.  I do not feel the Quran must answer the question in a specific explanation: Why do the Koran does not explain why Muslims are not under the system? The Quran tells us that the Torah and the relationship between Israel and Gd once existed. And it invites them to the latest relationship. Islam is not based upon "replacement theology", such that we are validated by the relaitonship the once existed between Gd and the Jews. Muslims are under the "general" relationship with Gd that has always existed, which deals with His Oneness, with His laws and statutes, and ways to seek repentance. Islam still contains forms of animal sacrifice, we still have ways of seeking His Divine Mercy through giving to charity and sincere repentance. These ways are all found in the Torah that we see today. Have a great day!

I plan to take your post to the Jews and ask for their input.  When I do, I will let you know what they say.

What would be helpful--and I know they will ask--is for you to quote the Scriptures that you are referring to.  See bold above.

You said: Forcing an end to exhile through terrorism and acting like animals does not prove that Gd still has a covenant with them. 

What are you talking about?

Please site the verses in the Koran that support your view.

Thanks.

Thank you for responding, George,

�What I have found in studying Judaism and in talking with Jews is that the trend now is to listen to the scholars--the Talmud, etc.�

Right.  Maimonides (aka Rambam) seems paramount among them: the Jews, the scholars and the Talmudists.  His is also a fascinating life, or biography, and at times provides a good focal point for interfaith discussions involving all three Abrahamic faiths.

�I have one Jew who says he is primarily a Torah only Jew.�

Oh, oh, a Jewish protestant?  Just kidding.  Interestingly enough, when Maimonides was writing his epistles, or letters, to his own at that point widely dispersed Jewish Community, informing them how best to withstand both Esau/Edom (Christianity) and Ishmael (Islam), he also argued against the �Karaites,� or those obstinate Jews who rejected the Talmud and held to the Torah only.  It seems the Karaites, at one point a formidable lot, were at times violently suppressed by Talmudists (and perhaps vice versa, I don't know).  To this day, though, I understand, the Karaites have dwindled in numbers but have a synagogue of their own in Northern California and a community in Israel. 

�I find that different Jews disagree among themselves.�

So do I.  That is putting it mildly.

�Who do you trust?�

For the most part, I trust Maimonides, among others, for the Orthodox Jewish viewpoint.

�Go back to the Scriptures.�

He never left them.  He held on for dear life and encouraged others of his community to do the same, despite persecution.  He did reject both Christianity and Islam, in the main, but, through a remarkable capacity of vision for a medievalist, saw in them the possibility that many might be finally brought to the Torah, portions of which were embedded within the otherwise, well, �corrupted� Christian and Islamic scriptures. 

�I'm reading an article now about Maimonides and other Jewish scholars that I haven't finished.  If I think you might be interested, I'll pass it along to you.�

Thank you for your kindness.  

�Many Jews now are saying that there are other ways to find salvation other than sacrifices.�

Maimonides is among them.

�The Scriptures say that God wants repentance and prayer and the like, but all of this was in addition to the sacrifices.�

Maimonides brings all of these scriptures to the discussion, but contends that the sacrificial system, in large part, and though God-sanctioned, was a borrowing from paganism (if I have correctly understood).

�There is a hint in them, that the sacrificial system would be abolished.�

Spot on.  Maimonides is fully aware of that hint, explicating, as he does, the Prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah, among others.

�A Christian would tell you how and when that came about.�

Not meaning to be indelicate here, but I think the issue should be forthrightly addressed.  Does the Christian �solution� involve a (granted, perfect) human sacrifice?

At any rate, and presuming to speak for the man, Maimonides was versed in the claims of Christianity and rejected them.  For proof of this, I suggest his {important: unexpurgated} Epistle to Yemen.  I found this one in a public library at one point but note that Wikipedia has put part of it into the public domain. 

�And then we have to consider the Messanic Jews.  They use their Scriptures, the Talmud, and Targums and come up with Jesus being the long-awaited Messiah.  How can that be?  They use the same materials?�

�He that hath an ear, let him hear �� 

�Also, an important point to consider is that Judaism has many forms now.  I primarily stick with the Orthodox way of thinking.�

I think you are well advised to do so.

�New Age Judaism is irrelevant.�

Right now.  But it might grow up and give us a new book from Babylon.

�I think there is also a different of opinion among the Jews as to whether when the Messiah comes the sacrificial system will be continued.�

I am interested in this point.  As I understand, Judaism is neither monolithic nor unanimous.  Keep in mind, as well, (and here I go from an at times faulty memory) what Josephus said of the Essenes, or the �Qumran Community,� and of their antipathy to bloody sacrifices.  Thy spilled no blood, except, probably the �blood of the grape,� i.e., wine, that, with bread, harkens back to the �acceptable?� sacrifice of Abraham and Melchisadek and to Jesus� Passover supper with his disciples.

�I read some of the topics here and found that Muslims don't believe that Jesus was the long-awaited King Messiah either and that explains a lot.�

I have understood that Jesus is recognized as Messiah by Islam but not according to the customary Christian definition of that term.  To me, that also explains a lot.

Servetus