Trying to Right Ishmael |
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superme
Senior Member Joined: 03 April 2006 Location: Cocos (Keeling) Islands Status: Offline Points: 463 |
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Posted: 03 May 2006 at 7:37pm |
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Thanks Bismarck, I think there is some truth in this. But why it runs that way? |
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Bismarck
Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286 |
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Genesis 12:1-3 condemns cursing Abraham. Therefore, the fairly blatant scorning of Ishmael (son of Abraham) in the current arrangement of the "Hagar & Ishmael" story seems to me to be cursing Abraham through his son Ishmael. That is very wrong. But I will not turn around and mock Abraham's son Isaac either. I will not try to stare Father Abraham in the eye and tell him one of his sons is a chump. In Genesis 25:9, both Ishmael and Isaac bury their father Abraham -- showing that both were in good standing with Abraham at that time. That said, emphatically, it seems to me to be the case that Ishmael was unambiguously born with and amidst true, earnest seeking of Almighty God. Almighty God heard Hagar's cries when Sarah drives her away the first time when Hagar is pregnant (Gen 16:11), and Almighty God heard child Ishmael's cries in the Wilderness when Sarah drove them away the next time after Ishmael's birth (Gen 21:17). Note also that Hagar saw an Angel of God (Gen 16:13), which would surely be a great honour. Meanwhile, Isaac I'm told means "laughter". Even Father Abraham laughed in disbelief when Almighty God told him Sarah would bear Isaac (Gen 17:17). And even Sarah too laughed at the prospect (Gen 18:12). But Almighty God turned her laughter into joyous laughter (Gen 21:6). So, whereas Ishmael was born around and amidst pure and earnest (and desperate) calling to Almighty God (Gen 21:16), Isaac was born out of (understandable) unBelief (which did, however, turn into amazed Belief). This is not a perfect read of the text as it survives, for Hagar is not explicitly shown as calling upon Almighty God during her 1st driving away. Rather, it was Almighty God who heard her. But there certainly is no hint of doubt either. I have to get off the inet at present. I will have to think about this and read about it. But I do wonder if, in some sense, Ishmael was born out of greater Belief (and certainly less unBelief) than even Isaac. Yet even if this is true, I know of no hint of any tradition that Abraham disowned Isaac or some such. Rather, the whole notion of any son of Abraham being "disowned" seems artificial and untrue. I think that all sons of Abraham were in good standing with their father, and any statements to the contrary are not grounded in Truth. I will not nay-say either Ishmael or Isaac. Also, with all due respect, I do believe that the OT always favors the younger son, not the elder. Jacob is favored over Esau, Joseph is favored over Reuben and the other 10 elder brothers, Ephraim is favored over Manasseh. The younger son is favored. I think that is a true statement, and scholarly accurate reading of the OT. |
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Bismarck
Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286 |
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Do not "throw out the baby with the bathwater". Let's start with "Persians". Let me give you a name: Khorvash Vazraka (Cyrus the Great). Is Khorvash Vazraka a "good guy" or a "bad guy" from the perspective of Abraham and Abrahamic Faiths? Khorvash Vazraka lived from about 570 - 529 BCE. I claim I can argue hegemonically overwhelmingly that Khorvash Vazraka was a "good guy", and that all the Abrahamic Beliefs owe him a gigantic "Thanks man!" But by 499 - 490 BCE, the liberation of Khorvash Vazraka had been permuted into tyranny, and the Greeks began chafing under their yoke and rebelled -- as they had earlier rebelled against the Canaanites in the Trojan War. For the next 150 years, the Persians invaded Greece with armies, and undermined Greece with their Secret Police. Finally, in 333 BCE, the Greeks rose up under Alexander the Great, and marching under the banners of Nemesis -- the Greek Goddess of Revenge -- destroyed the Persian Empire that had molested them for most of 2 centuries. But, just as the Persians before him had started off as liberators to whom all Mankind owes a debt of gratituted, but then quickly became corrupted into tyrants, so too Alexander the Great quickly let his victories go to his head, and in under 10 years Alexander became such a tyrant to his own Greek men that they rebelled against him and, arguably, Alexander was poisoned. Power corrupts. Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely. The lurings and traps and temptations and lies and honied words of the Snake are quite capable of playing upon the weaknesses of all the Sons of Adam -- irrespective of how much pigment they have in the outer layers of their skin. The Persians lost their roots. They didn't last but 200 years before the Greeks swept them aside. Alexander didn't last 10 years, and even the Greek Successor States only lasted at most 250 years until the Romans swept them aside. Then the Romans bit into the same corrupted fruit, and after 500 years they were swept aside by the Germans under Odovakr in 476 CE, who gained final revenge for 600 years of rape, murder, theft, pillaging, and enslavement of Germans by the Roman empire. The point is, that there is no way you can say, "races X, Y, and Z are bad, but races A, B, and C are good". Dark skin does not make you a saint, nor light skin a demon. There are good and bad people of every race and color. It's what's inside that counts. Your saying that dark skin is "good", and light skin is "bad", is actually racist. It is. Your saying, "this skin color is automatically good, that skin color is automatically bad". Almighty God does not judge by something so superficial as skin color. Rather, God deems men worthy or unworthy based upon the intents of their hearts: 1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." and by the deeds men do (their "works"): 1 Samuel 2:3
"Boast no more so very proudly, Do not let arrogance come out of your mouth; For the LORD is a God of knowledge, And with Him actions are weighed. These words say that any man who earnestly strives with all his heart and soul to do Almighty God's Will, and strives with all his strength and might to bring God's Will into this World (see Deuteronomy 6:5), will find favor in the Sight of Almighty God. Man's vision stops at the skin, Almighty God has "x-ray" vision.
Trinitarianism is ancient. It is the "tri-functional" theory of society -- divide men into "Shepherds (Priest Kings), Sheepdogs (Police-Military), and Sheep (Slaves)". In Rome, the Imperial Party swept aside the Republican Old Guard, destroyed the ancient Freedoms of the Roman Citizens, and instituted brutal totalitarian Police-State that ground the whole Mediterranean Basin, Roman and non-Roman alike, into the mud and mire. Racism, which merely boils down to believing that some characteristic of your own self makes you inherently better than others, no matter what you do, is exactly how the Snake tricks, dupes, games, and plays everybody. With all respect due, your saying that "Dark Skin = Good, Light Skin = Bad" is itself a form of racism. No matter what a Light Skinned man does, he's evil; no matter what a Dark Skinned man does, he's good. That type of racism is exactly what caused the Jews to reject their own Messiah 2,000 years ago, and hence exactly what John the Baptist (or, Dunker) preached against in Matthew 3:9. Racism is bad. I think that the current arrangement of the story of Hagar and Ishmael in the OT does, as you say, teach Jews to hate their own cousins! It teaches the sons of Abraham to hate the sons of Abraham! It fosters dischord in Abraham's family! That is exactly what I find so offensive! Please read Genesis 12:1-3 -- Father Abraham was so Righteous (Rightwise) that, thank God, he made the world such a better place, by actually and truly doing God's Will and bringing Godliness into this World, that Almighty God, as written in Genesis 12:1-3, made it a crime to curse Abraham! And the current arrangement of the OT actually curses the blood of Abraham, through Ishmael! So I cannot see how it could possibly be true. But just because it is a crime to curse Abraham, does not mean it is good to curse others. Some whites in America are racist. They hate blacks and all colored people. Why? Because they're poor. They're called "Poor White Trash", which you'd have to admit is pretty damn harsh. I offer that it's the single most offensive racial slur in English. And it's aimed at Whitefolk! Poor, hungry -- so hungry that, historically, they've often been driven to barely scratching out a living by eating clay -- and powerless. And so they are especially vulnerable to racism -- because it gives them some reason to feel good about themselves, after everybody else spits on them. Everybody else scorns them, but at least they aren't as bad as those other people way over there. It's the same way with sexism. That's why poor men are more likely to beat their wives -- everybody else mocks them, and they take out all their pent up fears and frustrations on their own wives, just so they at least aren't the bottom of the totem pole, so at least somebody is beneath them, so at least they have some power over somebody. It's actually weak. If Jack messes with you, you're supposed to mess with Jack -- not Sally way over there, who had nothing to do with any of it. Jack hits you, you hit Jack -- eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. But not some random eye or tooth. Only the exact person who did it. Otherwise, you're letting them off. They stepped to you, and you let them off. You feel better, but you still let them off. You're soft. But many poor men are too malnourished, hungry, tired, and despondent to know any better. It's heart-breaking. It's still wrong. Racism is wrong. Understandable, but wrong. I understand the Prophet Muhammad said in his "Final Sermon": You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity.
Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. I do not read this as condoning Racism.
Quick Answer: Saul Paulus is speaking metaphorically. Abraham has 2 types of "sons", that is, 2 types of "followers". The first are the "True Sons" of "Spirit/Promise". The other are "Blood Sons" who have Abraham's blood but don't follow in his footsteps, don't do as he did. Here, Saul Paulus exactly and precisely echoes the notion of "True Family" that the Messiah espouses in the NT. For example, Matthew 12:47-49
47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! Here, the Messiah shows that those who actually hear and heed him are more precious to him than even his own blood kin! As much as the Messiah surely "Honored his Mother and Father" and his family and kinsfolk, those who did the Will of Almighty God are even more precious still! And the Prophet Muhammad echoes exactly this point in his "Last Sermon": Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.
And, again, John the Dunker (Baptist) points out exactly this distinction in Matthew 3:9, "and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham." So, Saul Paulus is here speaking metaphorically. He is using the story of Abraham and his 2 wives and 2 sons as a metaphor to describe the 2 types of people who claim Abraham as their "Father" (not "Dad" or "Papa" or "Abba", which is the for Almighty God alone, but the more formal and distant "Father"). Some say they are good because they have the Blood of Abraham in their veins. But others are Abraham's "True Family", they Truly do as Abraham did, they Truly walk in Abraham's footsteps, they Truly follow the "Submission to the Will of Almighty God" that 'Father Abraham' taught. They are Abraham's "True Family". So, Paul is not speaking literally, but metaphorically. Also, "Arabia" in the 1st Century included the Sinai peninsula as well as the "Arabah", the region just east of the "Dead Sea" ("Salt Sea") where Petra and even Qumran were located. Recall, that the Nabateans were the sons of Nebayoth, the eldest son of Ishmael -- and they lived in Petra in the "Arabah". It is my understanding that what was considered "Arabian" in the 1st Century was somewhat broader than just "Saudi Arabia" today. (Also, please see http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html, which seems reasonable, although it is certainly a website, not a formally published book or peer-reviewed journal article.) Please accept the following: 2 Peter 3:14-16
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Another take: Saul Paulus (Saul "the Least" (see 1 Cor 15:9) ) was a Pharisee. He was fully versed in the Scriptures of the OT. He was trying to show, persuasively and unambiguously, from those OT Scriptures that all Jews acknowledged as "the Inerrant Words of God" that those OT Scriptures revealed Yeshua haMashiach was indeed the True Messiah. Therefore, Saul Paulus never ventured into the realm of doubting that those OT Scriptures were the "Inerrant Words of God". Had he done so, please think of what would have happened! All Jews would have flat out rejected the Messiah by merely claiming, "Hey, that guy's claims to be the Messiah are so preposterous, he has to claim Scripture is WRONG for him to be the man!" Therefore, Saul Paulus is merely echoing the OT to support the case of Yeshua haMashiach actually being the Messiah. That is, Saul Paulus is merely showing the 1,001 ways the OT proves Yeshua is the Mashiach (Messiah). There is no more to it than that. Therefore, the fact that Saul Paulus quotes the Hagar & Ishmael story as it currently is in the OT is merely proof that it was also arranged that way 2000 years ago too. But, I have argued that the current arrangement is so offensive that I just can't buy it. And I understand that, indeed, Islam holds that the OT is corrupt to some unspecified, but important, degree. Therefore, I am naturally inclined to agree with Islam here. Yet, Saul Paulus 2000 years ago could not possibly have publically doubted the OT Scriptures without destroying all support the Messiah had amongst his people. In fact, I sense that, in some way, the corruption of the OT Scriptures was such a "hamstring" on Godliness in this World that it made necessary the Prophet Muhammad's ministry to call it to everybody's attention. So, I am very inclined to agree that the current arrangement of the OT has an offensive twist in it. But Saul Paulus couldn't say such to the Galatian "gentiles" (so-called) who were under the influence of Jews who were trying to get them to revert back to Judaism against the Messiah, because were he to say the Scriptures were wrong, he would just give perfect ammo to the very people who were trying to lead his followers astray. Paul does not need to be doubted. The real problems with Christianity did not start to arise until about 150-190, and by about 200 CE we start having our first "anti-popes" showing clear dischord and disharmony in Christian ranks. The first formal schism was that of Novatius in about 250 CE. That was the beginning of the problems. But even as late as 385 CE, there were at least many Arian Christians -- and Islam has much nicer things to say about Arian Christians, over against Trinitarianism. Even note, that Arian Christianity survived amongst the Germans, particularly the Goths, until about 600 CE -- when Rome started a civil war between their own puppet rulers and the Gothic Old Guard who were Arians. And at exactly the same time, the Culdee British Church founded by Joseph of Arimathea, was also beset by Rome. And at exactly the same time, the Prophet Muhammad was called in about 605 CE. So, no sooner did Rome choke out Arian and Culdee Christianity in the western limits of the Mediterranean basin, than Almighty God called the Prophet Muhammad to the east of Mediterranean basin. I don't know, of course, but I feel there might be a link, sort of a "Providential Preservation" (see Psalm 119:152, Psalm 12:6-7, Psalm 119:89, I Peter 1:23, I Peter 1:25, Matthew 24: 35). That is, Almighty God promised He would preserve His Words, and so when Rome perverted it in the west (Goths in Italy and Iberia, Celts in Britain), Almighty God brought it forth again in the east (Prophet Muhammad). So, my own sense is, Christianity cannot be viewed as "functionally perverted" until the Calling of Prophet Muhammad around 600 CE (ballpark). Up until ~600 CE, Christianity needs to be given credit as The True Way (at least in the last strongholds of Arian-following Germans and Culdee Britains). But when the Arians and Culdees started to be ground down by Rome, the torch was passed to Prophet Muhammad in Arabia amongst the sons of Abraham through Ishmael. |
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fredifreeloader
Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456 |
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my information is that nowhere do we read in the quran that it was ishmael to be sacrificed - and plenty of muslim scholars say it was isaac
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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George
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Now let's take a look at the Qur'an "O my Lord, grant me a righteous (son)!" So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said, "O my son, I see in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice. Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said, "O my father, do as thou art commanded. Thou will find me if Allah so wills one practicing patience and constancy!" So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah) and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice), We called out to him, "O Abraham, thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" Thus indeed do we reward those who do right. For this was obviously a trial -- and We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice. -- Surat-us Saffat (37):99-107 Notice carefully in this passage, which is the only one dealing with the sacrifice that the name of the son is not given. It does indicate, however, that this was the boy whose birth was foretold as "GOOD NEWS." I can find nothing in the whole Qur'an about the birth of Ishmael. In fact very little is said about Ishmael, and absolutely nothing is said about the identity of his mother or his sons. It is from the Bible that we learn that Ishmael's mother was named Hagar, and that Ishmael had twelve sons (Gen. 25:12-17). Getting back to the "good news" mentioned in the above verse of the Qur'an, read this about Isaac and h is mother Sarah: Has the story reached thee of the honored guests of Abraham? Behold, they entered his presence and said 'Peace!" He said "Peace". ... They said, "Fear not," and they gave him GLAD TIDINGS OF A SON endowed with knowledge. But his wife came forward (laughing) aloud! She smote her forehead and said, "A barren old woman! " They said, "Even so has thy Lord spoken: and He is full of wisdom and knowledge." -- Surat-uz Zariyat (51):24-25, 28-30 In addition to this, read a summary of Abraham and Isaac which follows the Qur'anic passage dealing with the sacrifice: Peace and salutation to Abraham! Thus indeed do we reward those who do right. For he was one of Our believing Servants. And We gave him the GOOD NEWS OF ISAAC - a prophet - one of the righteous. We blessed him and Isaac. -- Surat-us Saffat (37):109-113
Notice the phrases "and they gave him GLAD TIDINGS OF A SON" and "We gave him the GOOD NEWS OF ISAAC." I can find no such wording for the birth of Ishmael in the Qur'an. It should now be clear that the son about whom the good news was given and who was prepared for sacrifice as described in Surah 37:99-107 was not Ishmael, but Isaac which is exactly what the Bible teaches. Not all Muslims believe that it was Ishmael. Yusuf Ali in his commentary of the Holy Qur'an, page 1204, note 4096, admits the following: "The boy thus born was according to Muslim tradition (which however is not unanimous on this point) the first-born of Abraham viz. Ismail." Notice the words "according to Muslim tradition" and "which however is not unanimous." It is obvious that the claim that the son was Ishmael is not according to the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself states that it came to confirm the previous Holy Books, not to contradict them. It appears that the Qur'an is in agreement with the Bible and that it is Muslim tradition which disagrees. |
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George
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Gen: 17:18 To God, Abraham said, 'May it be granted that Ishmael live before you!' 17:19 God said, 'Still, your wife Sarah will give birth to a son. You must name him Isaac.. I will keep My covenant with him as an eternal treaty, for his descendants after him. 17:20 I have also heard you with regard to Ishmael. I will bless him, and make him fruitful, increasing his numbers very greatly. He will father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 17:21 But I will keep My covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you this time next year.' Gen: 21:10 She said to Abraham, 'Drive away this slave together with her son. The son of this slave will not share the inheritance with my son Isaac!' 21:11 This troubled Abraham very much because it involved his son. 21:12 But God said to Abraham, 'Do not be troubled because of the boy and your slave. Do everything that Sarah tells you. It is through Isaac that you will gain posterity. 21:13 But still, I will also make the slave's son into a nation, for he is your child.' gain posterity Gen: 22:2 'Take your son, the only one you love - Isaac - and go away to the Moriah area. Bring him as an all-burned offering on one of the mountains that I will designate to you.' My Tanakh's translation of this verse is: "And He said, "Take your son, your favored one, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the Land o Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the heights that I will point out to you." Isaac was the favored son because it was through Isaac that the promise came. It was, therefore, that Hagar's son (Ishma'el) was already cast out from Abraham's household (Gen: 21:10-12) and disinherited. Thus, Isaac was properly Abraham's "only son" in regards to both family life and inheritance. |
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BMZ
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Bismarck, What strikes me is that God was with the boy Ishmael, the First Born of Abraham while he grew but not with the Second Born of the free woman. |
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fredifreeloader
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bismarck wrote: "I quickly identified some very troubling inconsistencies with the Jewish version. For example, although the description of the sending away of Hagar and Ishmael in the Jewish version (Gen 21:9-20b), taken by itself, closely matches the Muslim version, as we mentioned above the context in which the Jewish tale is set is very different from the context of the Muslim account. As we said, the Muslim version has Hagar fleeing with Ishmael as a nursing babe. But in the Jewish account, Hagar is not driven away until after Isaac is born (Gen 21:2) and weened (Gen 21:8) which typically happens about the age of 4. Thus, Ishmael is about 18 years of age � to wit, a fully grown adult male Bedouin."
so weaning takes place at the agoe of 4? -according to dr jamal badawi, the muslim polemicist, who was quoted on another thread, it took place at the age of three, so according to him ishmael was a "husky"(!) teenager of 17. this: http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/feeding/weaning.html tells another story. ishmael may have been 15. in any event we do not know how big he was (as a former teacher i have come across many very small 15 year old boys. boys do not develop physically as quickly as girls
"But even in the Jewish account, Abraham puts the boy Ishmael on Hagar�s shoulders (Gen 21:14), and Hagar puts the boy under a bush (Gen 21:15)."
no, abraham does not put the boy on her shoulders, it was the bottle (ie. skin) of water he placed on her shoulder. she has the skin of water over one shoulder. she will need one hand to keep this in place. your scenario has a baby on the other shoulder. would a mother carry a baby this way? and what does she do with the bread? how many hands does the woman have? no, ishmael walked away with hagar///////------Gen 21: 15 does not say she put the boy under a bush, it says she cast him under the bush. so mothers have now taken to throwing their babies on the ground? no, he was a teenage boy
" Hagar is probably about 40 years old at this point in the Jewish arrangement: Abraham goes to Egypt where Sarah picks up Hagar (Gen 12:10-20), Abraham comes out and lives in Canaan for 10 years before Hagar gives birth (Gen 16:3), and then Ishmael grows to age 18, so if Hagar was 10-12 years old when Sarah took her as her handmaiden, then 28 years later makes Hagar about 40. Moreover, Hagar could not have given birth before about age 13, meaning Hagar must be at least 30. So, we have a 30-40 year old woman giving a piggy-back ride to a fully grown adult Bedouin, one afterwards known as a mighty archer no less, and then just sticking him under a bush or fir tree. Then, our 18 year old Ishmael cries, and it drives his mother Hagar to distraction, and Almighty God hears his cries. Now, would an 18 year old adult male Bedouin soon-to-be archer whimper before his mother, even if he was really hungry or thirsty? To be blunt, an 18 year old man could probably withstand hardship and privation better than a 40 year old woman, and you�d think if one is caring for the other, it would be Ishmael caring for his own mother Hagar. And even if Ishmael fell ill, you would think that a fully grown adult man would put on a stronger show than crying �like a baby�."
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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