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Servetus View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 May 2006 at 1:43pm

Well, Fredi, I meant to mention as a ï¿½reader beware� that the op/ed piece came from the New York Times, after all.  That said, with that caveat aside, it is not so difficult for me, an amateur reader of history, to envisage a less than celestial (read military, or �Church Militant�) means by which, in future, every knee could be somehow made to bow and every tongue somehow made to confess and all that.  Speaking of florid, I had best reign in my imagination at this point, lest I try my hand at writing the world�s worst American novel (a sort of Torquemada as Robert Mapplethorpe at Abu Ghraib, if you get my drift).

 

But still, truth be told, I hear, understand and appreciate your perspective on this.  I thought, in turn, that you could appreciate the song.

 

 

Serv



Edited by Servetus
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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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no i dont know the song you quoted, servetus, but it certainly fits my thoughts in relation to gethsemane and the crucifixion

i would have called them "goose-pimples", actually!

as for nicholas kristofs article, i dont know why  its called "jesus and jihad".  the scenario presented does not seem to include any christian army, for instance.  i do not know of any christian army in the bible, in this age, or in the future.  it describes the return of Christ to earth, and the destruction of his enemies.  why this should come into the category of "religious intolerance" i dont know.  it is direct divine intervention in the world, nothing to do with human relations.  the writer strikes me as being of that ilk, that just cannot believe that anybody believes the bible any more.  he ought to get out more.

but i dont think ill be reading any of tim lahayes books, they sound too florid, among other things 
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Points: 456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2006 at 11:53am

Originally posted by Bismarck Bismarck wrote:


This is NOT true. An analysis of the Gethsemene scenes from Matthew,
Luke, and John clearly shows that Christians are mandated to KEEP &
BEAR ARMS -- AT THE READY (ON THEIR PERSONS AT ALL TIMES).

The Messiah only ordered his men to stand down so that the crucifiction
could happen. But the Messiah did NOT tell Simon the Stone (Kephas,
Petros) to DESTROY his sword, only to put it in its proper place -- IN HIS
SHEATH, AT HIS SIDE. The Apostles were confused, they thought they
were supposed to defend their Lord unto the maximum sacrifice if
necessary -- he told them to stand down, but NOT TO LET DOWN THEIR
GUARD.

Christians are mandated to KEEP & BEAR ARMS AT THE READY -- but
constrain their USE to those times, and only those times, when the
Scriptures demand their use.

Christianity is NOT a "pacificist" (so-called) religion. Their is a place for
(JUST) war in Christianity.

yeah right bismarck, two swords between the lot of them, right?  arent we just s t r e t c h i n g things a little here? 

let me just also say - there is no place for any literal war in christianity, as is clear in the holy scriptures.  the christians arsenal, and the nature of his war, are clearly delineated in ephesians 6: 10-18.  this is not to say that christians, as citizens of their country, may not fight in a just war, in defence of their country, but that, of course, is a seperate issue



Edited by fredifreeloader
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Mishmish View Drop Down
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Serv: "Technically, to remain consistent with my standardized inquiry into goosebumps, it really only counts if �French Pastry� is a soprano who can sustain a high (octave) C"

Well, it's singing my name....
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Servetus View Drop Down
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Points: 2109 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2006 at 8:55am

(Fredi)  �also ive never had the pleasure or otherwise of reading the oeuvres of mr tim lahaye, but i would venture a guess that he writes about a future age, ie not the present age of grace. 

 

I don�t read much fiction and have only read about Tim LaHaye's �Left Behind� series and thus I cannot say for sure if it is a pleasure or otherwise from my standpoint.  I think the series deals more with the proposed and imminent culmination of the age by way of a highly materialistic reading of the last book of the New Testament, the Apocalypse, or Revelations [note the �s�]  .   One thing about it, as this (below linked) unflattering op/ed piece, �Jesus and Jihad,� by Nicholas Kristof for the New York Times points out, there seems to be a lot of at best repressed or deferred old-fashioned militancy in the work.

 

 

(Mishmish)  �I get goosebumps from French pastry. Does that count?�

 

Technically, to remain consistent with my standardized inquiry into goosebumps, it really only counts if �French Pastry� is a soprano who can sustain a high (octave) C.  

 

Serv

Ref:

 http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/17/opinion/17KRIS.html?ex=124 7803200&en=b9eee1a2743a902b&ei=5090

 



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Bismarck View Drop Down
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Points: 286 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bismarck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2006 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by Patty Patty wrote:

The fact that the disciples fell asleep is the perfect
examples of their "human failings", and the fact that we ALL are
imperfect.� This took place on the night before the
Crucifixion.� Below is the teaching from the Gospel of Matthew:


Matthew 26:31-35<FONT face="Tms Rmn"
size=3>


The path from the upper room to the Mount of Olives would have
passed across the south side of Jerusalem (at that time) and into the
Kidron Valley, a deep ravine on the east side of the city. The site of
Gethsemane was part way up the mountain from the valley. On the way
Jesus warned the disciples that all of them would stumble that very
night. The Greek is quite picturesque and has been translated in many
ways here:� Jesus stated in Matthew that "you will all become deserters."�
He knew exactly what they were going to do...that they were imperfect,
and would fall.�


The Greek verb is skandalizo from which our word "scandal" and
"scandalize" comes. However, the root idea of the word in Biblical times
was to cause to sin, to stumble, or to be offended. Going out to face
death Jesus had the painful task of telling the disciples that all of them
would fail him that night. To emphasize and support his point he partially
quoted from Zechariah 13:7, "<FONT face="Tms Rmn" color=#7f007f
size=3>I will strike the shepherd and the sheep of the flock will be
scattered.


Matthew reveals the depth of Jesus� loneliness in his request to the
disciples to stay awake with him. For them to fall asleep would leave him
alone in the final moments of struggle.


Falling on his face he prayed that "<FONT face="Tms Rmn"
color=#7f007f size=3>this cup pass from<FONT face="Tms
Rmn" size=3>" him. The reference to the cup was Old Testament
language for a person�s lot in life or what would happen to him or her.[/
FONT]


At that point the temple guard closed in to arrest Jesus. One of the
disciples pulled a sword and cut off an ear of one of the servants of the
high priest. The attempt of this lone disciple to defend Jesus seems pitiful
in contrast to the large arresting mob. But Jesus was clear that neither the
disciple�s defense nor the mob�s power mattered. He could have
summoned twelve legions of angels to fight for him had that been within
the will of God. The language echoes intertestamental apocalyptic Jewish
literature describing the final conflict of history that would usher in the
Messianic age. Although the transition of ages was Jesus� goal, cosmic
conflict was not his method. Rather, Scripture must be fulfilled; God�s will
must be done. Human resources (the sword) lead to human results. Only
obedience to God accomplishes God�s ultimate goals. Matthew�s
words emphasize the fulfillment of Scripture. God was directing these
moments of Jesus� life. The final comment was that all the disciples left
him and fled.


Not only was Scripture fulfilled; so was Jesus� prediction from verse
31.� Which was, once again:� Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be
offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the
shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.


Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen, and how his disciples
(being human) were going to fall that night.� Of course He knew....He is
God.


God's Peace,


Patty


�




<FONT face="Tms Rmn" size=3>�

[/
BLOCKQUOTE]


Reliance upon the sword EXCLUSIVELY... leads to "human results". IOW,
BEING A BULLY (=relying on your military power ALONE) leads to
"human results".

But when the Shophar (Horn of Battle) sounds on ALMIGHTY GOD'S TRUE
ORDERS... you must respond.

Not ALL wars are evil. Only UNJUST wars. Likewise, MURDER (UNJUST
killing) is a SIN... but not all killing (such as self defense) is MURDER.

Cosmic Conflict WAS the Messiah's goal... that is the WHOLE point of
Christianity -- a WAR ON SIN, WRONG, EVIL (see 2 Corinthians 6:7, 10:4
-5, and Ephesians 6:10-18 -- we bear spiritual weapons in the fight
against UnGodliness and are to "stand firm" (Eph 6:13) meaning DON'T
BUDGE, DON'T GIVE GROUND, NEVER TOLERATE SIN/WRONG/EVIL).

Cosmic Conflict WAS the Messiah's goal -- he just had a VERY
UNORTHODOX "outside the box" means of achieving his war aims. Sort
of a "Judo" technique if you will -- make your enemies look as blatantly
evil as they truly are, eviscerate their lies and propaganda, and unmaks
Caesar as the unGod-Man he truly claims to be... when the people of the
Roman world see what their leaders are TRULY up to, they will no longer
support/tolerate/accept them... and the EVIL of the Roman EMPIRE will
have been felled...

Also, if I may, the fact that the Messiah had tremendous knowledge about
the hearts and minds of those around him, including the secret
schemings of the Sadducees, does not REQUIRE that the Messiah "is
God"...

Almighty God WARNING His Messiah through the Holy Spirit (Holy Breath
of God, see Gen 2:7, connection w/ God = True "Breath of Life") about the
treachery surrounding him would ALSO explain the observed facts (the
Messiah's vast awareness)

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Bismarck View Drop Down
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Points: 286 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bismarck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2006 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by fredifreeloader fredifreeloader wrote:

"Something must be
missing here."


sure. sleep was missing.� when you are
exhausted you go to sleep.� and most of them did go on to lay down their
lives for the Lord in the following years


the other thing that was missing was the muslim propensity for
fighting and killing.� muhammad informs muslims in the quran
that fighting is "prescribed for them".� only peter gave into this
weakness�at the arrest of�Christ�when he cut off malchus' ear, which
the Lord then healed

<!-- Signature -->



This is NOT true. An analysis of the Gethsemene scenes from Matthew,
Luke, and John clearly shows that Christians are mandated to KEEP &
BEAR ARMS -- AT THE READY (ON THEIR PERSONS AT ALL TIMES).

The Messiah only ordered his men to stand down so that the crucifiction
could happen. But the Messiah did NOT tell Simon the Stone (Kephas,
Petros) to DESTROY his sword, only to put it in its proper place -- IN HIS
SHEATH, AT HIS SIDE. The Apostles were confused, they thought they
were supposed to defend their Lord unto the maximum sacrifice if
necessary -- he told them to stand down, but NOT TO LET DOWN THEIR
GUARD.

Christians are mandated to KEEP & BEAR ARMS AT THE READY -- but
constrain their USE to those times, and only those times, when the
Scriptures demand their use.

Christianity is NOT a "pacificist" (so-called) religion. Their is a place for
(JUST) war in Christianity.
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Bismarck View Drop Down
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Points: 286 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bismarck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2006 at 9:00pm
Mishmish, I respectfully offer that your analysis of Luke will not fly in
Christian circles.

Their response will be, "Jesus told his men to arm themselves that the
Scripture might be fulfilled, that 'And he was numbered with the
transgressors'. IOW, in order to full the Torah, this charade of feigned
armed attempt to protect the fated-to-be-crucified Christ HAD to happen
to fulfill Messianic prophecies. You might say, "it was pandered to" in
some sense. But it happened that "the Scriptures might be fulfilled".
Therefore, to say the Apostles' attempts to protect the Messiah show that
protecting the Messiah was good could be circumvented. "No he didn't
have to be protected, it was an act to prove he was the Messiah".


Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

<SPAN =sup id=en-NIV-25891>I think that the
most important point here is that it has been argued on this board that
Jesus made it clear to the disciples that he was in fact God. If that is the
case, then even with the sure knowledge that they were in the presence of
God Himself, and that God, in human form was about to end His time
with them on this earth, they slept and did not even keep watch with God
on the last night. </SPAN>

<SPAN =sup>Just ask yourself this question, if you knew you were in
the presence of God the Almighty, and God told you it was His last night
on earth, would you sleep? C,mon, this is God. They couldn't even stay
awake for God? </SPAN>

<SPAN =sup>Then, in the morning, they denied knowing Jesus, who
has made it clear to them that he is God, the Almighty. Then Peter, whom
God had treated as a brother, disowned him three times.�</SPAN>

<SPAN =sup>All of this would be bad enough if it had�happened to a
regular man, much less a Prophet of God. But, according to Christians, it
happened to God.��</SPAN>

<SPAN =sup>Who among us would waste the chance to sit in the
actual presence of God for a second of time? Yet, the disciples, those men
handpicked by Jesus himself, slept their last night in the presence of God.
Even after Jesus, God to them,�awoke them the first time and asked them:
"Could you men not keep watch with me for one
hour?" they fell asleep a second time. </SPAN><SPAN =sup>Then
denied him the next day. The man that you say they knew was God,
because he made it clear to them. </SPAN>

<SPAN =sup>Fred: "in john 18: 6, we read that the motley
crew assembled to take him with all their weapons, "went backward,
and fell to the ground" at the majesty of his presence.� Christ needed
no bodyguard, like some tuppenny-bit politician."</SPAN>

<SPAN =sup>Yet, in�Luke Jesus told his disciples to sell their clothes
to buy swords, and in Matthew one of the disciples actually used his
sword to cut off the ear of one of those�sent to arrest�Jesus. If he was in
need of no protection, why�tell the disciples to arm themselves? �</
SPAN>

<SPAN =sup>Luke 22:35 </SPAN>Then Jesus asked them, "When I
sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"   
"Nothing," they answered.

<SPAN =sup id=en-NIV-25892>Luke 22:36 </SPAN>He said to
them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you
don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Luke 22:<SPAN =sup id=en-NIV-25893>37 </SPAN>It is written:
'And he was numbered with the transgressors'<SUP>[<A title="See
footnote b" href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?
book_id=49&chapter=22&version=31#fen-NIV
-25893b">b</A>]</SUP>; and I tell you
that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching
its fulfillment."

<SPAN =sup id=en-NIV-25894>Luke 22:38 The </SPAN>disciples
said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."�"That is enough," he
replied.


Matthew�26:50<SPAN =sup id=en-NIV-24102> </SPAN>Jesus
replied, "Friend, do what you came for."<SUP>[<A title="See footnote d"
href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%20 26;
&version=31;#fen-NIV-24102d">d</A>]</
SUP>    Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. [/
I]

<SPAN =sup id=en-NIV-24103>Matthew 26:51 </SPAN>With that,
one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck
the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

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