Was Jesus� death a real sacrifice?

DavidC wrote: Hi Mishmish.  God did not need to become human, but he did it so that his chosen people, who had becme distanced and lost, could be reunited with him.  That was a sacrifice, even though God was not diminished in any way.

His chosen people, the Jews? That worked out well, didn't it?

I do know about the trinity. They are three, yet they are one. If they are indeed one, then Jesus is God. God is God and can never not be omnipotent nor omniscient, therefore, if Jesus is God, Jesus could never not be omnipotent nor omniscient. Now, if you're saying that Jesus is not God, I agree. Then the death of Jesus would have been a true sacrifice. Otherwise, you basically having God commiting suicide, then bringing Himself back to life in three days.

Mishmish wrote: Alright, humility then. Where is the humility when you are God? Even if you are in human form, you are still God. You are still perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and going to be alive again in three days. Sacrifice is the cornerstone of all faith. But sacrifice that means something. In Islam it is the greatest sacrifice to give up something that you love. Did Jesus as God love the life of this world? Did he love human existence more than being God? You may say that God loved his only begotten son Jesus, but then you believe that Jesus is God, so He loved Himself. And Jesus gave up his earthly life to be God, so what was he giving up that he loved so much that it could be the ultimate sacrifice? When you are God, what can you possibly sacrifice that you cannot have again?

Your comments indicate that you do not know that Jesus taught that there is the Father, that he was the Son and that there is a Holy Spirit of God.

Peace

George wrote: [QUOTE=Yankovich] George, you know I've seen that trend among some of these so-called "Messianic" Jewish congregations.  It seems to me that Jesus didn't say He had two flocks, but only one.  Not one that's Messianic Jewish (Jewish) and the other the Gentile congregations.  No, I have a lot of problems with the Judaizing of Christianity, although I do respect Jewish scholarship. Remember how Paul said that in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile - we are all one.

Yes, indeed, Yank.  We are only one flock.  The Jews were to be a light unto the Gentiles and Jesus said salvation comes through the Jews, not to the Jews and to the Jews only and that salvation was through the Messiah Jesus.

Yes, we are all one in Christ.

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It is an irony that you Christians talk about salvation while the OT and NT contradict to refute each other:

(1)Righteousness alone?

" "But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, HE WILL SURELY LIVE because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."  (From the NIV Bible, Ezekiel 3:19-21)"

OR  (2)Jesus?

"that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.    (From the NIV Bible, John 3:15-17)"

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.  (From the NIV Bible, John 14:5-7)" 

Very funny indeed!

Are the non-Jews such as the Christians  etc the dogs?...Read this verse"A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, 'Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.  Jesus did not answer a word.  So his disciples came to him and urged him, 'Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.'  He [Jesus] answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.'  The woman came and knelt before him.   'Lord, help me!' she said.  He [Jesus] replied 'It is not right to take the children's [Jews] bread [blessings and miracles reserved for them] and toss it to their dogs [the Gentiles].' (Matthew 15:22-28)

I am surprised to know that the Gospel of Mathew call the Christians the dogs(Matthew 15:22-28)!

DavidC wrote: Mishmish - the pain experienced was surely a sacrifice as was the simple humility in God's experienceing humanity.

DavidC: I thought about this for a while. This is the conclusion I came to:

I am not sure of the exact length of time Jesus was tortured. The accounts vary, but it was hours, not days. If Jesus was God, He could have stopped this torture at any time. He chose not to, as God, He had that choice. I assume this was to fulfill the prophecies.   Now, I ask myself, what of people who suffer excrutiating pain but have no choice? Pain for days, months, even years? Prisoners of war who are captured and tortured for years. People who die of horrible diseases. My brother died of brain cancer. He suffered for almost two years. He had three surgeries to remove tumors. By the third surgery his body was so compromised he could no longer heal. He died with a hole in his head that exposed his brain. By the time he died he was 5' 10' and weighed less than 80 pounds. He couldn't walk or eat or even use the bathroom. That is suffering. He had no choice. I'm sure he would have welcomed a few hours of pain in exchange. My brother is dead. He has no hope of being resurrected after three days in a perfect body. While he lay suffering, knowing he was dying, he was not comforted by the thought that this was just a three day deal.

How can God be humiliated by anything one of His creations does to Him? If Jesus were indeed God, nothing any man or creature did could actually humiliate Him. How could it?  God would have known what was going to be done before the men even thought of doing it. He would have been prepared for anything. God knows everything. If Jesus was God, He could have stopped them at any time. There is great power in that knowledge. How could that have been humiliating? To know that you are God and could completely destroy these men that were tormenting you, yet allowing them to continue. So, even during the torture and crucifixion, God still had the power and the control. He is God, He is always in control.

I think you can only suffer true humiliation when you have lost any power and control that you may have had.

So, I look around and I see humans that are suffering through pain everyday. I see people who give up their lives for others, knowing that they will not be alive again in three days, or even what will happen to their eternal soul. That is sacrifice.