The NT and Prophecies

George wrote: Andalus Matthew is merely comparing Jesus to Moses.  Hosea 11:1 originally referred to God's calling the nation of Israel out of Egypt in the time of Moses.  Matthew applies it to Jesus.  He sees the history of Israel (God's children) recapitulated in the life of Jesus (God's unique son).  Just as Israel as an infant nation went down into Egypt, so the child Jesus went there.  And as Israel was led by God out of Egypt, so also was Jesus.

Hi George.

I think you are going off topic. Keep in mind that a comparison is not equivalent to a prophecy. They are not one and the same thing, nor does one prove that the other is a prophecy.

George wrote: Jesus' sojourn in Egypt recalls the experience of Moses, who returned to Egypt after fleeing to Midian (Ex 3-4), and then was delivered out of Egypt in the Exodus along with his people by the power of a providential God. In coming out of Egypt, Jesus can be seen as a second Moses who delivers his people. While the true fulfillment of Israel's Exodus occurs in the death and resurrection of Jesus, Matthew obviously has in mind the story of the baby Moses who was threatened by the king of Egypt, who did not know Joseph (Ex 1:8ff.). As Pharaoh fabled to kill Israel's future deliverer in his devious and wicked slaughter of the innocent Hebrew boys (Ex 1:15-2:10), so also Herod failed to eradicate the threat he saw in the birth of the King of the Jews.

Again George, you are moving around the meat of the topic. No one is saying that Herod did not try and kill Gd, and that Matthew compared Jesus to Moses. What is being argued is that this is not a prophecy. This is a point you have yet to bring up.

George wrote: Verse 2 is not germane to the point that Matthew is trying to make.

The real question is: WHo cares what Matthew thinks is or is not germane to his point?

This is about the verse being a prophecy claim by the church. I find it interesting that you have been willing to nit pick through unrealistic expectation when it comes to Islam, yet here is an exmaple of a prophecy claim in your word of Gd that is obviously not a prophecy, and you are having such a difficult time with this verse that you have yet to actually discuss it. If Matthew is just trying to make a point, then this is clearly not a prophecy, but a really bad attempt at a "midrash". So do you believe it is a prophecy or not?

George wrote: Hosea 11:1 is not listed in the prophecies of the Messiah.  Matthew's comparison could be described as a "type prophecy."

Whether or not it is listed as a messianic verse is completely irrelevant to the thread. What we are discussing is that the Church claims this is a prophecy about Jesus. Also, keep in mind that a messianic verse held as important to Jews has nothing to do with Jesus prophecies of the Church.

George wrote: You might be interested in this translation of Hosea 11:1-2, witch comes from my Tanakh. The Jews that I know said it was a good translation. "I fell in love with Israel When he was still a child, And I have call [him] My son Ever since Egypt. Thus were they called, But they went their own way; They sacrifice to Baalim And offer to carved images. Notice how different that translation are. Do you understand Matthew's point now? Peace

What I fail to understand is how a different translation of the verse, and information about how the author of Matthew felt concerning Jesus and Moses, has anything to do with the thread. The above translation does not help the claim of the church about Hosea any more than the translation I gave. Furethermore, I stated that nothing in the Hebrew Grammer supports the Christian claim, that the two verses can be seperated, that it has a dual meaning, or that it is a prophecy. I have the most popular TANAKH edition, Stone Edition, and it does not help the claim of the Church either.

Since you failed to give a single point that directly resolves trhe points I put forth, I conclude that you have sought out some research on the topic, and like myself when I studied your faith, was unable to find a single, solid argument for resolution.

Peace

George,

Andalus has a great point, when he wrote:

V1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him,
       and out of Egypt I called my son.

V 2 But the more I called Israel, 
   the further they went from me. 
   They sacrificed to the Baals 
   and they burned incense to images.

One cannot just stop at V1. The "But" in  V2, clearly shows that the main gripe of God is in V2, not V1.

V1 shows God loved the Israelites, bestowed favours upon them, giving the strength and hope to bear the life under the cruel Pharoahs and then arranging a deliverer Moses, who came out of Egypt itself, right from the House of the Pharoah.

V2 shows how ungrateful the same people had become after Moses delivered them with God Almighty's power behind him and brought them into Sinai. Instead of remaining steadfast to God Almighty, they started worshipping the Golden Calf, etc.

That is what The Lord God Almighty is unhappy about and displays  extreme displeasure.

"and out of Egypt I called my son." does not refer to either Joseph or Jesus.

Please check with Moses.com and the learned Rabbi will confirm what I said. It is no prophecy at all for the coming of Jesus.

bmzsp wrote: Hi Andalus, You have come up with an interesting and challenging post and I have the following comment: According to Christian OT: Hosea 11 1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him,        and out of Egypt I called my son.  2 But the more I called Israel,     the further they went from me.     They sacrificed to the Baals     and they burned incense to images. Let us see what the Jewish Scripture has to say! The title in the Jewish Scripture is Ingratitude for God's benefits 1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him,        And out of Egypt I called my son. 2 The more they called them,the     more they went from them;     They sacrificed unto the Baalim,    And offered to graven images. Stark difference, one can see. I have noticed that the Christian OT has been reworded at places where it matters most in the interest of getting prophecies come true or making a statement look like a prophecy. I agree with your thoughts. BR & Salaams BMZ

BMZ there is no stark difference.

Christian Scriptures

1 �When Israel was a child, I loved him,
      And out of Egypt I called My son.

Internet Jewish Scriptures

1. For, when Israel was young, I loved him, and from Egypt I called My son.

Another Internet version of Hebrew Scriptures

1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.

You are going to have to realize that what you call "Christian" OT was translated from the Hebrew to Greek by Jews prior to Christianity.  The only way you are going to be able to determine whether the Hebrew Scriptures are more correct than our OT is to compare the Hebrew with the Greek translation.

There is no reason to believe that the Hebrew Scriptures are more correct that what we have.  Anyway verse 1 is just about identical with the Hebrew Scriptures.

Peace

In terms of prophecies, Fredi

BMZ