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The Mediator and the Prophet
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Israfil View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:40am
Very interesting I'll have to bring this up to a couple theologians I know and see if all is in agreement with this. As I have heard of multiple intepretations. what I don't understand is how the Angel of the Lord, as described in the verses I posted above an angel calls Moses to a Bush and not serve as a mediator. I didnt understand that part. You are right that in the ascent of the prophet to the Eyprean that he spoke to God directly however the prophet's dialogue with God on the physical plane was with a mediator that being the Angel Gabriel.
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DavidC View Drop Down
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No, the Angel was the messenger who directed Moses to God's presence in the burning bush but God spoke to Moses without intermediary.

Later in Exodus Moses requests that he be allowed to see God's face.  God allows Moses to actually see his back, as that is all Moses would be able to tolerate.

Exodus 33:18
"Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!"

And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;

and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.

"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Skip to Exodus 34:29

It came about when Moses was coming down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the testimony were in Moses' hand as he was coming down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because of his speaking with Him.  So when Aaron and all the sons of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.

I would also put the Prophet Muhummad in the category of those said to have spoken directly with God as he did so during the Miraj.  I also recall mention of a cloud over Muhummad's tent during the recitation that had parallels to the column of smoke in Moses flight from Eqypt, but I can't remember where I read that.
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Brother DavidC

Exodus 3:2

Parallel Verses

<LX <CM <ML CH

ASV: And the angel of Jehovah appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

BBE: And the angel of the Lord was seen by him in a flame of fire coming out of a thorn-tree: and he saw that the tree was on fire, but it was not burned up.

DBY: And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thorn-bush: and he looked, and behold, the thorn-bush burned with fire, and the thorn-bush was not being consumed.

KJV: And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

JPS: And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

WBS: And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

WEB: The angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

YLT: and there appeareth unto him a messenger of Jehovah in a flame of fire, out of the midst of the bush, and he seeth, and lo, the bush is burning with fire, and the bush is not consumed.

 

This proves with several verses that thus the Angel was the mediator between Moses and God.
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

Assalamu Alaikum:

Also, this hierarchy can not be correct as Allah told the angels to bow to Adam. Adam had knowledge which they did not have. At this time, Adam was in the presence of Allah in Paradise.

Where are the Jinn in this hierarchy?

If you read Sister Mishmish David was right as I was noting the hierarchy in accordance to the Philosophers and Islamic theologians. The Djinn, are represented. Noting the hierarchy, I note beings closes to God in the Empyran and their nature. The Angels, being of the spiritual realm exist nearest to God. Although Biblically and Quranically speaking they do not possess the same faculties as man however live nearest to God. The Soul is perhaps most arguable because it interchanges with Spirit etc. The Djinn beings created from smokeless fire are perhaps "spiritual" beings. Being neither body nor of the same "composition" as the Angels I also include them in this category.

Their nature, being created in the spiritual realm are too closes to God because they don't suffer the temporal limitations as we do. Although they may share in the same dutis as man they can be held as closer to God, spiritually in the sense of their being than us. Mankind is perhaps God's greatest creation being both mind and soul and whom possess many faculties both Angel and Djinn don't. One of the greatest of this is knowledge and an example of this is Adam's ability to name the many beast God create which the devil couldn't.

Remember even though Allah told the Angels to bow the Angels existed before man and in a time, were closes to God than we were prior to mankind's existence that is why they are above man in the hierarchy.

 
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Brother DavidC if you note my reference the Bible refers to the burning Bush as the presence of "The Angel of the Lord" Of course God spoke to Moses however every prophet (with the exception of a few) had a mediator. Muhammad had a mediator as well as Moses. Of course in the Qur'an there is no note of a mediator however there are signs of a veil in between the prophet and God. Prophets are human therefore there is nothing in history, both Quranic and Biblical that would note that man can withstand the infinite being of his Creator.
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Originally posted by salman_s salman_s wrote:

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:



But since that is where we are going, the Qu'ran puts Man above angels.

man commits sins, angels never commit sins, angels worship Allah (alone) all the time

Assalam Aleikum.

Angels cannot commit sin not on part of their own free will, but only because they are "unable" to commit sin. They are only capable of following through with their tasks and roles.

Man, endowed with freedom of choice, and the ability to obtain knoweldge, also suffers from the risk of committing sin.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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David,

"I feel like a preschool teacher, lining everybody up in single file from tallest to smallest  "

You are well-read and you have earned it but be careful of the child spat, not from me though!  
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Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:



But since that is where we are going, the Qu'ran puts Man above angels.

man commits sins, angels never commit sins, angels worship Allah (alone) all the time
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