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Apologetics, Isaiah 7:14, and Obfuscation |
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DavidC ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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From Wesley's notes:
Verse 23. They shall call his name Emmanuel�To be called, only means, according to the Hebrews manner of speaking, that the person spoken of shall really and effectually be what he is called, and actually fulfil that title. Thus, Unto us a child is born�and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Prince of Peace�That is, he shall be all these, though not so much nominally, as really, and in effect. And thus was he called Emmanuel; which was no common name of Christ, but points out his nature and office; as he is God incarnate, and dwells by his Spirit in the hearts of his people. It is observable, the words in Isaiah are, Thou (namely, his mother) shalt call; but here, They�that is, all his people, shall call�shall acknowledge him to be Emmanuel, God with us. Which being interpreted�This is a clear proof that St. Matthew wrote his Gospel in Greek, and not in Hebrew. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Patty ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Hmmmm, well Andalus, you give me more to research. (I research mostly Jewish Antiquities.) If you believe in the truthfulness of Mary, what do you make of her words, "I have not know any man." (When the angel first appeared to her and told her she was pregant.) Is she telling the truth? Or not? I'll get back with more. I have a very bad habit, Andalus. Sometimes I go into a thread in the middle. I need to ALWAYS start at the beginning of every thread. I will do my research and return. God's Peace. |
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Patty
I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
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Andalus ![]() Moderator Group ![]() Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
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Hi Patty! I have one "minor"
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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Mishmish ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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The only problem I see with this, is that Matthew was written after the birth of Jesus, and Isaiah was written before. It's very easy to predict a prophesy after the fact. Where is the prophesy before the birth of Jesus that the Messiah would be named Jesus?
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Patty ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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From St. Luke, Chap. I, 26-38: And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a Son; and thou shalt call His Name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of David His father; and He shall reign in the house of Jacob forever.
God's Peace! |
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Patty
I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
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Mishmish ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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So, are you saying that this verse says something, but means something else? Because it says the virgin shall conceive a Son, and name him Immanuel. But that's not what it means? Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Patty ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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AnnieTwo said: "The personal name of a child would not be Immanuel. Rather, the name Immanuel describes the child's nature and function." Yes, you are right, Annie. Just as Jesus is also referred to as the Prince of Peace, Light of the World, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Counselor, etc. The list goes on and one, but those are adjective sayings describing Him...not His name. I suppose that is where some of the confusion may come into the picture. God's Peace to You Annie.
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Patty
I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
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AnnieTwo ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 26 May 2006 Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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My dear Patty, The term "Immanuel" meaning "God with us" was God's way of saying that He was with the Jews to protect them and to punish them. BMZ would be better off looking for the times that God protected the Jews and punished them, rather than looking for a name. In other words, look for the meaning of Immanuel. The name Immanuel is not a personal name but rather a description of the child's nature. The Holy Bible often uses names to describe certain characteristics, qualities and/or functions of an individual. Jesus' Hebrew name, Yeshua, means "Salvation/God saves." Christians do not call Jesus, "God saves" or "salvation" but we believe that Jesus saves and is our salvation--God saves us through Jesus. The personal name of a child would not be Immanuel. Rather, the name Immanuel describes the child's nature and function. Edward
J. Young in his commentary on Isaiah states: Isaiah is not predicting the Messiah's personal name. Rather, Isaiah is indicating that the Messiah would be the complete embodiment of what the name actually represents. Hence, Immanuel signifies that the Messiah would be God himself coming to dwell with his people in visible form, being the fullness of Deity in the flesh. (cf. Matthew 1:22-23, 28:20; John 1:18; Colossians 2:9) The
original passage was meant as a sign for King Ahaz. In context it includes all of Isaiah 7. When we take into consideration the entire context of Isaiah we
discover that the sign of v.13 was for the entire "House of David"
since the term for "you" in verses 13-14 is in the plural. Yet, the
sign for King Ahaz in vv. 11 and 16-17 was for him only since "you"
is singular in these passages. Therefore,
Ahaz's sign was that before the child (Hebrew- na'ar meaning a toddler, never a baby) should know how to choose
good, refusing evil, the events of vv. 16b-17 would transpire. This child was
Isaiah's son, Shear Jashub, who was with the prophet at the time and at whom
Isaiah directed this sign. (Cf. Isaiah 7:3) Yet,
the son (Hebrew- ben) of v.14
would be a sign to come for all of David's descendants since he would be the
long-awaited Messiah who was born approximately 700 years later to the young
virgin maiden, Mary. Furthermore,
rabbinic interpretation applied Isaiah 7, specifically Isaiah 7:21, to
messianic times: The point that sticks out from the preceding quotation is the constant reapplication of OT passages to messianic times. Hence, Matthew was being thoroughly Jewish in his application of Isaiah 7:14 to the Messiah seeing that this is precisely what the rabbis did with Isaiah 7:21! The most famous medieval Jewish Bible
commentator, Rashi says, in regard to Isaiah 7:14: Quote: In other words, Rashi is saying that there would be something miraculous about this child. Such as Jesus being born without a human father. (although Rashi does not believe that it is Jesus being prophesized in Isaiah 7:14.) Jewish
sages have sometimes had something to say about the possibility of a virgin
birth: Abraham
Farissol, medieval Jewish sage: We cannot deny the possibility that God, may He be blessed,
could create in a virgin, even one whom no man has known, for He created
everything out of nothing. - quoted by Daniel J. Lasker, Jewish Philosophical Polemics Against
Christianity in the Middle Ages (New York: KTAV/ADL, 1977), p. 153. The
Nizzahon Vetus, medieval work of polemics: Contemporary
scholar Adam Kamesar: The doctrine of the virgin conception was not attacked per se. The possibility that a woman
might conceive with her virginity intact, though by means of normal
fertilization, is an occurrence which is conceded in the Talmud. (Adam Kamesar,
"The Virgin of Isaiah 7:14: The Philological Argument from the Second to
the Fifth Century," Journal of
Theological Studies, n.s., vol. 41 part 1 April 1990, p. 51) These
citations again implicitly affirm that the Jews realized that the context of
Isaiah 7:14 demanded that a virgin be meant here. This
is further strengthened by the fact that Isaiah 7:14a states that this was to
be a "sign" (Hebrew- ot)
from the Lord. The word ot
almost always means an extraordinary event demonstrating God's power and direct
involvement in human affairs. There is nothing miraculous for a woman to
conceive a child through sexual intercourse since this is something common. Yet
it is truly amazing for a virgin to conceive a child as in the case of Mary and
Jesus. There is no substance to the argument that Matthew misinterpreted Isaiah 7:14 when he claimed that the prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus' virgin birth. To the contrary, his interpretation reflects genuine insight into a difficult passage of Scripture, an insight that bears the mark of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Annie Edited by AnnieTwo |
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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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