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Apologetics, Isaiah 7:14, and Obfuscation

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DavidC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 June 2006 at 8:36pm
From Wesley's notes:
Verse 23. They shall call his name Emmanuel�To be called, only means, according to the Hebrews manner of speaking, that the person spoken of shall really and effectually be what he is called, and actually fulfil that title. Thus, Unto us a child is born�and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Prince of Peace�That is, he shall be all these, though not so much nominally, as really, and in effect. And thus was he called Emmanuel; which was no common name of Christ, but points out his nature and office; as he is God incarnate, and dwells by his Spirit in the hearts of his people. It is observable, the words in Isaiah are, Thou (namely, his mother) shalt call; but here, They�that is, all his people, shall call�shall acknowledge him to be Emmanuel, God with us. Which being interpreted�This is a clear proof that St. Matthew wrote his Gospel in Greek, and not in Hebrew.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 5:36pm

Hmmmm, well Andalus, you give me more to research.  (I research mostly Jewish Antiquities.) 

If you believe in the truthfulness of Mary, what do you make of her words, "I have not know any man."  (When the angel first appeared to her and told her she was pregant.)  Is she telling the truth?  Or not? 

I'll get back with more.  I have a very bad habit, Andalus.  Sometimes I go into a thread in the middle.  I need to ALWAYS start at the beginning of every thread.  It's not my only bad habit....I've got so many...but one I definitely need to break! 

I will do my research and return. 

God's Peace.

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by Patty Patty wrote:

From St. Luke, Chap. I, 26-38:

And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a Son; and thou shalt call His Name Jesus.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of David His father; and He shall reign in the house of Jacob forever.

The Messiah would be Immanuel, "God with us."
Prophecy Fulfillment
Isaiah 7:14b
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Matthew 1:21-23
" 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
More Prophecies From This Book Additional Fulfillment Examples
Luke 7:16

 

God's Peace!

 

Hi Patty!

I have one "minor"  problem. It (minor problem) is located at the very beginning of this thread, here goes for a repeat! I am not being rude or unjust, but I am reminding the thread how it (the thread) began, and that there has been no real reply to the points I have provided. Now someone is re-asserting the very claim that I have provided rational, and well founded points that reveal problems with the claim. The church , though admits there are problems in the Matthew claim, has failed to produce a single solid work to iron out the problems. I can respect an answer such as, "I cannot explain the problems away and I accept this on faith". Every single Christian forum I have given this too have yet to provide any substabce, even an admission that it is simply accepted on faith.

 

Originally posted by re-quote re-quote wrote:

The Context demonstrates:

1) That it makes no difference if the female discussed in 7:14 is a virgin or not (the end result and point of the verse is not dependent upon a strict interpretation of the female being virign)

2) That the verse is irrelevant to the people of the late second temple

3) The verse talks about a sign, not a miracle, relevant to the people of the time period.

 

The context: Two armies from two kingdoms are set to destroy Jerusalem and the davidic throne.

Gd offers, not a miracle, but a sign to the reigning king of Jerusalem, and the representative of the Davidic line.

The Sign: A child will be born to a woman. Before the child reaches the age of puberty, the two armies will be destroyed.

Conclusion: According to the Hebrew Scriptures, this did indeed occur.

The sign, according to any common sense reading, according to any serious exegesis, even with the most conservative of uses of the charity principle, is not the birth, but the time line given by the child's age that coincides with the destruction of the armies.

The birth of the child has no bearing on the armies of the two northern kingdoms, but the child does.

According to Christians, it is the birth that is the sign, because the birth is to a virgin, and this is a prophecy about Jesus being born centuries later after the people in Jerusalem are all dead and forgotten about, after the siege had ended. For the sake of the argument, lets say the verse is about a child born to a virgin, and this is the sign. Lets also assume it is a prophecy.

This implies

1) There were two virgin births, one at that time and one in the late second temple. This would mean the birth of Jesus was not unique.

2) There was one virgin birth, and somehow, the Hebrews were supposed to be able to render almah as young woman who was not a virgin, and then almah as virgin for the double prophecy meaning, which would be relevant to a future generation that had nothing to do with those who were held captive behind the walls of Jerusalem. I would like for Christians to show me the text that allows someone to to render almah as non virgin and then as virgin for the prophecy interpretation.

If the child born was all together part of a prophecy and has nothing to do with King Ahaz, then

1) Which two warring kingdoms of the north were destroyed when Jesus reached the age of puberty?

2) If this part of Isaiah 7 is not part of the prophecy, then please, I would like for Christians to provide me with the methdology that allowed them to rip the point of the story, the destruction of the two warrring armies, out of the verse as a non prophecy, and only keep the child born to a virgin seperate?

If "almah" in chapter 7 must be strictly interpreted as virgin, then the entire sign should be rendered meaningless. Lets assume that chapter 7 is about a virgin birth. This would mean that the woman being a virgin is a critical point for 7 to work.

I will demonstrate by now assuming this is not a virgin birth in Isaiah 7.

The birth is not by a virgin.

Before the child reaches puberty.

The two warring armies of the north are destroyed.

The child reaches the age of puberty.  

Conclusion: The end result in the story occurs with or without the word "almah" being rendered "virgin".

Matthew's claim of Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy is obviously a mistake. No one with any serious intention of learning can look at this claim and look at the actual verse and declare it a prophecy about a virgin giving birth.

The main themes of the story are entirely irrelevant to late second temple. What would be the significance at the moment before Jesus knows right from wrong? Would this imply that Jesus did not know right from wrong and had to reach puberty before his true divine self would kick in? What two warring kingdoms were destroyed (armies) before Jesus knew right from wrong? What would Ahaz care about Jesus and late second temple period? Why would Isaiah as Ahaz for a sign for people living in 2 CE?

The answers do not exist, and giving the point away that almah is virgin causes more problems, and unanswered questions.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 4:39pm
The only problem I see with this, is that Matthew was written after the birth of Jesus, and Isaiah was written before. It's very easy to predict a prophesy after the fact. Where is the prophesy before the birth of Jesus that the Messiah would be named Jesus?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 2:24pm

From St. Luke, Chap. I, 26-38:

And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a Son; and thou shalt call His Name Jesus.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of David His father; and He shall reign in the house of Jacob forever.

The Messiah would be Immanuel, "God with us."
Prophecy Fulfillment
Isaiah 7:14b
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Matthew 1:21-23
" 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
More Prophecies From This Book Additional Fulfillment Examples
Luke 7:16

 

God's Peace!

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 1:20pm

So, are you saying that this verse says something, but means something else? Because it says the virgin shall conceive a Son, and name him Immanuel. But that's not what it means?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

 

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 12:04pm

AnnieTwo said:

"The personal name of a child would not be Immanuel. Rather, the name Immanuel describes the child's nature and function."

Yes, you are right, Annie.  Just as Jesus is also referred to as the Prince of Peace, Light of the World, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Counselor, etc.  The list goes on and one, but those are adjective sayings describing Him...not His name.  I suppose that is where some of the confusion may come into the picture.

God's Peace to You Annie.

 

Patty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnnieTwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Patty Patty wrote:

BMZ,

One of our more popular and more frequently sung hymns at Mass is a hymn called "Oh Come, Oh Come Immanuel", written about 450 CE.  It's beautiful!  It's sung during Lent.

Peace be with you.....



My dear Patty,

You are right about the hymns of Immanuel.  We, Christians, do call Jesus, "God with us."

The term "Immanuel" meaning "God with us" was God's way of saying that He was with the Jews to protect them and to punish them.  BMZ would be better off looking for the times that God protected the Jews and punished them, rather than looking for a name.  In other words, look for the meaning of Immanuel.

The name Immanuel is not a personal name but rather a description of the child's nature.  The Holy Bible often uses names to describe certain characteristics, qualities and/or functions of an individual.  Jesus' Hebrew name, Yeshua, means "Salvation/God saves."  Christians do not call Jesus, "God saves" or "salvation" but we believe that Jesus saves and is our salvation--God saves us through Jesus.

The personal name of a child would not be Immanuel. Rather, the name Immanuel describes the child's nature and function.

Edward J. Young in his commentary on Isaiah states:

"Who is this Child? In chapter 7 the mother named Him Immanuel. Here, the subject is impersonal and the verb will be rendered in English by the passive, 'and his name will be called.' The thought is that the Child is worthy to bear these names, and that they are accurate descriptions and designations of His being and character. In the Bible the name indicates the character, essence, or nature of a person or object." (Young, Commentary on the Book of Isaiah [Grand Rapids; Eerdmans, 1974], p. 331)

Isaiah is not predicting the Messiah's personal name. Rather, Isaiah is indicating that the Messiah would be the complete embodiment of what the name actually represents. Hence, Immanuel signifies that the Messiah would be God himself coming to dwell with his people in visible form, being the fullness of Deity in the flesh. (cf. Matthew 1:22-23, 28:20; John 1:18; Colossians 2:9) 

The original passage was meant as a sign for King Ahaz.  In context it includes all of Isaiah 7.  When we take into consideration the entire context of Isaiah we discover that the sign of v.13 was for the entire "House of David" since the term for "you" in verses 13-14 is in the plural. Yet, the sign for King Ahaz in vv. 11 and 16-17 was for him only since "you" is singular in these passages.

Therefore, Ahaz's sign was that before the child (Hebrew- na'ar meaning a toddler, never a baby) should know how to choose good, refusing evil, the events of vv. 16b-17 would transpire. This child was Isaiah's son, Shear Jashub, who was with the prophet at the time and at whom Isaiah directed this sign. (Cf. Isaiah 7:3)

Yet, the son (Hebrew- ben) of v.14 would be a sign to come for all of David's descendants since he would be the long-awaited Messiah who was born approximately 700 years later to the young virgin maiden, Mary.

Furthermore, rabbinic interpretation applied Isaiah 7, specifically Isaiah 7:21, to messianic times:

"In connection with Gen. 18:4, 5 it is noted (Ber. R. 48, ed. Warsh. P. 87b) that the words of Abraham to his Angelic guests were to be returned in blessing to Abraham's descendants, in the wilderness, in the land of Canaan, and in the latter (Messianic) days. Referring only to this last point, the words 'let a little water be fetched,' is paralleled with the 'living waters' in Zech. 14:8; 'wash your feet,' with Isa. 4:4 (the washing away of the filth of the daughters of Zion); 'rest under the tree,' with Isa. 4:6- 'there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat;' 'I will fetch a morsel of bread,' with the provision, Ps. 72:16- 'there shall be a handful of corn in the earth,' etc. So also the words: 'Abraham ran unto the herd,' are paralleled with Isa. 7:21 (which is most significantly here applied to Messianic times); and lastly, the words 'he stood by them,' with Mic. 2:!3- 'the breaker is come upon them.' The same interpretation occurs in Bermid. R. 14 (ed. Warsh. p. 55a), the references to the Messianic days there being to Isa. 14:2; 30:25; 41:18; 4:4; and 4:6." (Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah- Complete and Abridged in One Volume [Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., Fourth Printing 1993], pp. 981-982)

The point that sticks out from the preceding quotation is the constant reapplication of OT passages to messianic times. Hence, Matthew was being thoroughly Jewish in his application of Isaiah 7:14 to the Messiah seeing that this is precisely what the rabbis did with Isaiah 7:21! 

The most famous medieval Jewish Bible commentator, Rashi says, in regard to Isaiah 7:14:

Quote:

Immanuel [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): �And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,� and we do not find a prophet�s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father�s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth. [/QUOTE] 

In other words, Rashi is saying that there would be something miraculous about this child.  Such as Jesus being born without a human father.  (although Rashi does not believe that it is Jesus being prophesized in Isaiah 7:14.)

The young woman vs. virgin:  <>Rashi also explained that alamot (plural of almah) in Song of Solomon 1:3 means b'tulot ("virgins") as a metaphorical reference to the nations. Hence, we find at least one Rabbi agreeing that almah and b'tulah are virtually synonymous terms. 

Jewish sages have sometimes had something to say about the possibility of a virgin birth:

Abraham Farissol, medieval Jewish sage:

We cannot deny the possibility that God, may He be blessed, could create in a virgin, even one whom no man has known, for He created everything out of nothing. - quoted by Daniel J. Lasker, Jewish Philosophical Polemics Against Christianity in the Middle Ages (New York: KTAV/ADL, 1977), p. 153.

The Nizzahon Vetus, medieval work of polemics:

<>Granted that the prophet said that a virgin would give birth to a son. So what? There is, after all, no doubt that the Lord's hand is not incapable of fulfilling his will and desire, and that he is a ruler who can do whatever he wishes..." (David Berger, The Jewish-Christian Debate in the High Middle Ages: A Critical Edition of the Nizzahon Vetus [Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1996, � 1979], p. 103) 

Contemporary scholar Adam Kamesar:

The doctrine of the virgin conception was not attacked per se. The possibility that a woman might conceive with her virginity intact, though by means of normal fertilization, is an occurrence which is conceded in the Talmud. (Adam Kamesar, "The Virgin of Isaiah 7:14: The Philological Argument from the Second to the Fifth Century," Journal of Theological Studies, n.s., vol. 41 part 1 April 1990, p. 51)

These citations again implicitly affirm that the Jews realized that the context of Isaiah 7:14 demanded that a virgin be meant here.

This is further strengthened by the fact that Isaiah 7:14a states that this was to be a "sign" (Hebrew- ot) from the Lord. The word ot almost always means an extraordinary event demonstrating God's power and direct involvement in human affairs. There is nothing miraculous for a woman to conceive a child through sexual intercourse since this is something common. Yet it is truly amazing for a virgin to conceive a child as in the case of Mary and Jesus.

Jesus is praised and adored as Immanuel by millions of his followers around the world.  As we noted many of the great hymns of the church center in on that one key name, including the medieval classic beginning with the words, "O come, O come Emmanuel, and ransom captive Israel." 

There is no substance to the argument that Matthew misinterpreted Isaiah 7:14 when he claimed that the prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus' virgin birth.  To the contrary, his interpretation reflects genuine insight into a difficult passage of Scripture, an insight that bears the mark of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Annie

 




Edited by AnnieTwo
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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