Free Will

"Anger/no anger" is just a behavior as how feelings are conveyed, "fact/no fact" is immaterial.

 If at all subject was changed, it was changed long before my "wondering" question, though I did caution, then and there, not to deviate from the topic. Dispite all this, I still think, evolution of later discussion, did not get far away from the main theme. 

The whole discussion till page 3 went into circles, from one direction or the other. There was hardly any new point came forward to add any thing new, but the repetitions of the old. Just to come out of  "going round in circles", the question of "morality" in "free will" was introduced to look at the same question, but yet from another angle. Is there any voilation of the forum rules? I don't think so, especially people on this forum did show their interest to continue with that discussion. Later, all of a sudden, with reasons beyond comprehension of the people on the forum, the discussion turned into attempting opinions over individuals than the topic. Now this is what I call it "lame excuses", just to remain polite.

Now coming to the "final paragraph", I realize that my "wonder" about any logical link of "morality" with "no faith" is still unanswered. At least uptill now in the present discussions. At time, "consciousness"[1], has been suggested, without realising that it is simply a state of mind to "pick and choose" from the available options, irrespective, if it is instinctively based or otherwise. Hence, this is yet to be seen that how it this "consciousness" is independant of "faith" and not "instinctive" based, a quality through which even animals also make their decisions. On the other hand "moral" is to directly related to ethics, a process of consciously making good or bad [2] decisions. Kindly note that even in this definition, the highlighted words "good or bad" are implicitly understood as defined outside the process of consciousness. It is yet to see that "standard" through which this conscious decision can be made in favor of "good" and not the "bad", distinctively different than animals, can be achieved without faith.

[1]. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=consciousness

1. Main Entry: con�scious�ness
Pronunciation: -n&s
Function: noun
1 a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c : AWARENESS; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : MIND
3 : the totality of conscious states of an individual
4 : the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness>
5 : the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes

[2].http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/moral

Main Entry: ¹mor�al
Pronunciation: 'mor-&l, 'm�r-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin moralis, from mor-, mos custom
1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent> 

Bismillah,

My final paragraph?  Yes, faith is a door and once you enter it, it encircles your life.  Stand outside if you want.  that's up to you, sort of.  Cause then 'we're at that free will discussion again.

Bismillah,

We have free will, yet Allah, The Most Glorious, the Most Knowledgeable, knows everything that has or will happen.  We need to apply this idea to our lives by making wise choices because we as individuals are responsible for everything we choose or choose not to do.  Of course, this easily applies to atheists as well.  Everyone wants to take responsibility for her own actions, right?

Faith and free will interact freely.  The faithful attempt to follow Allah's guidance making wise choices along the way.  We know that even if this world is harsh, our Bounitful Lord is The Most Forgiving and Merciful and that we need strive towards pleasing Allah in order to achieve success in this world and in heaven.

Faith is a choice.  You don't have to have faith, but you still have free will.  We who choose to have faith have chosen for a myriad of reasons and have been guided to that by a myriad of means by Allah's Mercy.  Faith is a huge topic, so maybe if anyone is interested in why each of has faith in Allah, and in heaven, he should post a topic requesting our Faith based stories.

For those of us with Faith, Free will is the determining mechanism for it's implementation.  Faith alone is satisfying, but what shall it do left alone as an idea?  We put action into our faith through our faith with every action we take when our faith sincerely guides us.

O my dear bro Tim, why are you so offended with my posts? Are these so hard on you? Is there any discussion on this whole forum, where your anger is not being reflected, on one member or the other? So, is it time for me to get a share from you? I never intended that. Even after your offensive "shut up" call, I happily decided to quit, but certain posts later including the one from your "stab at the back" where I was being directly/indirectly addressed, I couldn't let their replies unanswered. Is this a big thing to come back to, simply to reply back, through most logical way, that I can think of, without the iota of disrespectful. Do you also want me to reply you back in the same tone when you further say "You abused that offer in the most un-gracious manner. You now attempt to restart the debate on your own terms. ".

 However, I shall not attempt to pay you back in the same tone, just to let every one distinguish, from our conversation, the difference between the "wilds" and the "Civilized". Indeed, 'logical discussion' is one thing that can't take place among the "wilds".