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Direct Link To This Post Topic: For StephenC
    Posted: 19 October 2006 at 5:45am

The case of apostasy has already been discussed here.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4107& ;KW=afghan+man&TPN=1

StephenC, stick to the topic and ask questions in the spirit of engaging in interfaith dialogue. If you are here to refute everything without any evidence as you did in this thread, it will simply not work, and that goes against guidelines.

Even after 28 pages, you failed to come up with a response to the question raised in the very beginning of the thread. Instead, you keep jumping from one topic to the other. You will not be allowed to do this further.

And yes, this is a warning!

 

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 3:43am

continued from above

So is this another incident of where the Qu'ran and the supplemental books are contradictory?

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 3:41am

Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

There is no punishment for apostasy when Allah mentioned the subject  in Quran so the answer unequivocally is No.
Treason or State secret all bets are off like Gadahn's case
3:100 O ye who believe! If ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!

47:25 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.


2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

16:106 Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

You know there are millions of apostates running around in western controlled areas, and nobody is getting hauled in any court.


Was the quoted information wrong? (Book 38, Number 4341: Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal)

I thought Mu'adh ibn Jabal was one of Muhammad's "companions."  Should we ignore the writings of the "companions?"

"Umar thereupon summoned five persons who had collected the Qur'an in the lifetime of the Prophet, peace be upon him. They were Mu'adh bin Jabal, Ubadah bin as-Samit, Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, Ubayy bin Kab and Abu al-Darda."

And

"When the noble Prophet reached Yathrib, Mu'adh bin Jabal stayed in his company as much as possible. He studied the Qur'an and the laws of Islam until he became one of the most well-versed of all the companions in the religion of Islam. "

Wherever Mu'adh went, people would refer to him for legal judgments on matters over which they differed. This is not strange since he was brought up in the school of the Prophet himself and learnt as much as he could from him. He was the best pupil of the best teacher. His knowledge bore the stamp of authenticity. The best certificate that he could have received came from the Prophet himself when he said, "The most knowledgeable of my ummah [community] in matters of Halal [permitted, allowed, lawful or legal] and Haram [forbidden] is Mu'adh bin Jabal."

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4076& ;PN=1

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 3:14am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:



OK let's examine the non Islamic Books' a troll might believe in

 According to bible, which man is an adulterer?

�But I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery� (Matthew 5:32).

The divorce rate is 50% in western world  so statistically what are the chances that you are not a biproduct of one of these conditions of genetic material's rendezvous. Not very good seeing the behavior you have shown. Have'nt you noticed that folks thumbing their noses on your menure.

�But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart� (Matthew 5:28).

Do I need to say anything, do you see your face in this statement? 
 
 How does God say you can determine whether your wife is cheating on you?

  Answer:  �And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man�s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, and a man lie with her carnally . . . then the man shall bring his wife unto the priest . . . and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel . . . And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot� (Numbers 5:11-27).
Very scientific
  1.   10 But if he amurdered he was punished unto bdeath;
  2.  and if he crobbed he was also punished;
  3.  and if he stole he was also punished;
  4.  and if he committed dadultery he was also punished;
  5. yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->Go read Mark Foley's story  n Get lost.
<!--[endif]-->


Thank you for your post, but what does the Bible have to do with this discussion?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2006 at 9:37pm


OK let's examine the non Islamic Books' a troll might believe in

 According to bible, which man is an adulterer?

�But I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery� (Matthew 5:32).

The divorce rate is 50% in western world  so statistically what are the chances that you are not a biproduct of one of these conditions of genetic material's rendezvous. Not very good seeing the behavior you have shown. Have'nt you noticed that folks thumbing their noses on your menure.

�But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart� (Matthew 5:28).

Do I need to say anything, do you see your face in this statement? 
 
 How does God say you can determine whether your wife is cheating on you?

  Answer:  �And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man�s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, and a man lie with her carnally . . . then the man shall bring his wife unto the priest . . . and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel . . . And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot� (Numbers 5:11-27).
Very scientific
  1.   10 But if he amurdered he was punished unto bdeath;
  2.  and if he crobbed he was also punished;
  3.  and if he stole he was also punished;
  4.  and if he committed dadultery he was also punished;
  5. yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.
Go read Mark Foley's story  n Get lost.




Edited by Sign*Reader
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2006 at 7:29pm
There is no punishment for apostasy when Allah mentioned the subject  in Quran so the answer unequivocally is No.
Treason or State secret all bets are off like Gadahn's case
3:100 O ye who believe! If ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!

47:25 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.


2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

16:106 Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

You know there are millions of apostates running around in western controlled areas, and nobody is getting hauled in any court.




Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2006 at 7:20pm

Are Islamic punishments from God or man?

If they are from man, then they are extreme and barbaric.

If they are from God, then a true believer must self inflict the appropriate punishments on himself.

Thus if you have ever stolen anything, you should cut off your own hand,  If you have committed adultery than you should kill yourself.  It does not matter if no one, but you and God know that you have committed the sin, since the punishment are from God and not man.  God is more important than man!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2006 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

One thing that REALLY bothers me is where Muhammad said that if a person embraces Islam and then turns away from it, they should be killed!

Is this some kind of Arabic mafia?

If Islam is so good, then why not let a person exercise free will?


I have the answer ready for this bible thumperish question, first  you need to provide the complete context to your assertion.

What does the Bible have to do with this?

Isn't it true that when Muhammad learned of a jew that had embraced Islam and then turned against it, he approved the killing of the jew?

"Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others."   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Book 38, Number 4341:

Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:

AbuMusa said: Mu'adh came to me when I was in the Yemen. A man who was Jew embraced Islam and then retreated from Islam. When Mu'adh came, he said: I will not come down from my mount until he is killed. He was then killed. One of them said: He was asked to repent before that.



I asked to provide the complete context about Muhammad, and be unrhehtorical.
The Wikipedia is no authority to Quote from in this kind of issue didn't you know?
Then state this bogus description about Muadh. What that has do to with Muhammad's actions.
I am 99% sure you are a troll and me thinking you are catching on straws.... no matter how much mud you sling at the moon it will fall on your face and make it uglier for all to see and moon will go on its journey with ebb n flow till eternity.
This is kind of mudslingging has been happening in the west for longest period of time since the advent of His Prophesy; at the behest of Popes and Kings and other lo lives, but hardly anybody can remember those badmouthers but the Muhammad the PRAISED ONE's name goes on liting the dark passages of the vallies of disbelief all over the world and now it is shining over the west itself. I just made up this parable for you.
Anyways, the following case may illuminate dark recesses of  a demented mind, the punishment of Apostasy is universal when an
Ummah is at stake( YOU still have not provided the context about your assertion yet )


Now the monkey is on your shoulder and I ask why?

WASHINGTON (CNN) --

Adam Yahiye Gadahn, who has appeared in five al Qaeda videos, is also charged with offering material support for terrorism, U.S. Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty said.

He has been put on the FBI's Most Wanted Terrorists list, and the State Department is offering a $1 million reward for information leading to his arrest and conviction.

The 28-year-old California native is the first American to face the charge since the World War II era, McNulty said.

"A charge of treason is exceptionally severe, and it is not one we bring lightly," McNulty said at a news conference in Washington. "But this is the right case for this charge."

If apprehended and convicted, Gadahn could face the death penalty.

McNulty said he believes that Gadahn has been involved in issuing propaganda but not in carrying out any terrorist attacks=free will

Is you mind still wandering the dark vallies of the land?

 

I quote the sources so that the readers will know that I did not make it up.

Instead of personal attacks, why not respond to the issue?

Does Islam (and/or did Muhammad) advocate death to those who embrace Islam and then abandon it?

Simple question.  Why the reluctance to answer?

Does it or not?

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