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BMZ 
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 April 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1852
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 Topic: A question on the Qur�an
Posted: 19 October 2006 at 5:06am |
I showed my son something very fascinating today and he was dazzled by it and said to me,"My Father, My God"!
Now I have become a God! 
Come on CARM member, let's discuss the short-cut to become God.
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fatima
Moderator Group
Joined: 04 August 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 979
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Posted: 19 October 2006 at 4:11am |
Bismillah irrahman irrahim
I was going to ask you exact word for, 'whose, it, this' in arabic but seeing you are a professional in this circle. I will leave you to burn in this hatred of yours and yes you are arab and can speak arabic but what good has it done to you? 'And when they hear idle talk they turn aside from it and say: We shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; peace be on you, we do not desire the ignorant' (28:55).
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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Cyril
Senior Member
Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 176
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Posted: 19 October 2006 at 1:40am |
 damaninchrist wrote:
If we want to talk grammar, pronouns like "hou" and "ha" don't refer to terms after them. |
That is a strange statement. Pronouns refer to what is logically related to them whatever their place. When you say "ismuhu daw�d" (his name (is) Daw�d) you notice that the pronoun "hu" cannot relate to a preceding word as the sentence begins with ism.
| You are basically saying that "ismou l masee7ou houwa l masee7ou" instead of "ismou l kalima houwa l masee7ou". Which statement makes sense? |
You must not say ismu l-mas�Hu (sorry I don't use your half English half French transcription) but ismu l-mas�Hi (construct state). I think that both statements make sense. I would say ismu l-kalimati instead of ismu l-kalima.
| And about the Bible in Arabic, I never claimed it's perfect in Arabic. |
According to what I found in a detailed grammar of Classical Arabic there is no mistake in John 1:1.
Edited by peacemaker
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damaninchrist
Newbie
Joined: 17 October 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: 18 October 2006 at 9:43pm |
bmzsp wrote:
Apple Pie,
Don't waste my precious time or that of others', please. Do this on that Christian channel and have fun. I will see you there in April 2007, when I will be teaching the Bible to the Christian friends there.
BMZ
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Actually, I am not Apple Pie.
Apple Pie or not, we always own you in Arabic.
Don't forget that you admitted yourself that you're not an Arab boy, while I am one.
JIG
Edited by damaninchrist
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BMZ
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 April 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1852
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Posted: 18 October 2006 at 9:06pm |
Apple Pie,
Don't waste my precious time or that of others', please. Do this on that Christian channel and have fun. I will see you there in April 2007, when I will be teaching the Bible to the Christian friends there.
BMZ
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damaninchrist
Newbie
Joined: 17 October 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: 18 October 2006 at 7:01pm |
bmzsp wrote:
Apple Pie, oops, I mean Damanchrist,
From you: "Here, let me elaborate for the Arabic speaking people"
Elaborating for the Arabic-speaking people?
Let me first edit your numerics within the translation of the verse!
"Iz kalatil-malaikato 'ya maryamo innal-laha yobash-shirokay bikalimatin minho-smohul-maseeho ee-sab-no maryama', wajeehan feed-dunya walakhirati wa minal-mukar-rabeena................."
Ismohu means whose name was or whose name is or whose name will be, simply his name.
The verse is not discussing the gender of the word or kalima. |
The "hou" is referring to the term before it ... that's what we're discussing.
| "Innallaha yobashshirokay baykalimatum-minho" does NOT really mean "Surely God gives you the good news of a word from Him". That is the word-to-word translation. The nessage to Maryam simply means "O' Maryam, God gives you the good news of a son". That is all to that. |
Oh, really? So all English translations of the Quran are wrong. Assuming you're right, the grammar is still wrong.
Obviously, you don't know grammar, then. 
"Nafs" is a feminine term than can describe a male.
"Zawj" (when it means mate) is a masculine term that can describe a female.
Have fun learning
JIG
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damaninchrist
Newbie
Joined: 17 October 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: 18 October 2006 at 6:46pm |
bmzsp wrote:
Apple Pie, oops, I mean Damanchrist,
From you: "Here, let me elaborate for the Arabic speaking people"
Elaborating for the Arabic-speaking people?
Let me first edit your numerics within the translation of the verse!
"Iz kalatil-malaikato 'ya maryamo innal-laha yobash-shirokay bikalimatin minho-smohul-maseeho ee-sab-no maryama', wajeehan feed-dunya walakhirati wa minal-mukar-rabeena................."
Ismohu means whose name was or whose name is or whose name will be, simply his name.
The verse is not discussing the gender of the word or kalima.
"Innallaha yobashshirokay baykalimatum-minho" does NOT really mean "Surely God gives you the good news of a word from Him". That is the word-to-word translation. The nessage to Maryam simply means "O' Maryam, God gives you the good news of a son". That is all to that.
From you: "Notice the bolded part
hou is erroneously a masculine pronoun when it should be feminine since it's referring to "kalima" which is feminine not masculine."
If Jesus, essabno maryama were a girl, it would not have been ismo-hu. Since Jesus was Mary's male child, we cannot say that her name was Jesus, the son of Mary.
From you: "Oh, and no cheap replies, like "the Quran can never have grammar mistakes" because, unlike you, I don't assume that the Quran is perfect and that the Quran is exactly the same as the original. So spare me such replies, and just refute my point."
I am sure you would consider this scholarly reply proper in response to your cheap comments!  
Good Night from Singapore.
BMZ |
BMZ, I still remember testing your knowledge in Arabic grammar by asking you three simple questions ... you did not post since then!
Here's one question for you here:
Are you good at "i3rab"?
If so, do this one for me ...
Zahaba l waladou ila l madrasati
3reble kilmet "zahaba" then "waladou" then "madrasati"
Yalla ya shattour
Edited by damaninchrist
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damaninchrist
Newbie
Joined: 17 October 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: 18 October 2006 at 6:42pm |
Cyril wrote:
There is apparently no break between "bikalimatin minhu" and "smuhu l-mas�Hu".
The article "al" of mas�H looses its hamza with its "a" sound because of the "u" from smuhu.
It is shown in the Arabic script by the waSlah (=liaison) on top of the alif.
The same happens between the "u" of minhu and smu which has lost its initial hamza and "i" because of the "u" of hu.
Again it is shown by a waSlah on top of the alif of ism.
It could be "bikalimatin minhu smuh� l-mas�H".
But as the Quran says smuhu so the pronoun must refer to the masculine name around which is al-mas�H.
I don't think it is a mistake. The choice was between smuh� refering to al-kalimah or smuhu refering to al-mas�H. It is the second option which is written.
Strangely enough there is a similar "error" in the Arabic Gospel of John (1:1) where it says: "fil-bad'i k�na (instead of k�nati) l-kalimatu".
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If we want to talk grammar, pronouns like "hou" and "ha" don't refer to terms after them.
You are basically saying that "ismou l masee7ou houwa l masee7ou" instead of "ismou l kalima houwa l masee7ou". Which statement makes sense?
And about the Bible in Arabic, I never claimed it's perfect in Arabic.
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A question on the Qur�an