Introducing Islam To non-Muslims

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Andalus

Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187

Topic: Introducing Islam To non-Muslims
Posted: 31 October 2006 at 9:48pm

StephenC wrote:

Andulas

"I stated that the followers put together an authoritative written copy."

How in the world is it possible for it to be an authoritative written copy if:

A. Muhammad, the only one hearing the "voice" was dead,

B. God or his angels did not put a "seal of approval" on it.

Authoritative "written" copy does not mean "the first authoritative Quran", since the Quran is the revelation that had been memorized, and writings compiled, at the death of the Prophet (and approved).

You are drawing bad conclusions again.

Or are you claiming that the entire membership of the committee attended ALL of Muhammad's sermons! Or was it presented to those who did attend ALL of Muhammad's sermons and they "Authorized it?"

Be realistic!

I am saying that hundreds of Muslims, listed in hadiths and in the isnaads, knew the entire Quran.

Thats what I am saying. That is entirely realistic!

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

StephenC

Guest Group

Joined: 16 September 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 264

Posted: 31 October 2006 at 9:47pm

Andulas

"You refuse to acknowledge any point given to you about your bad reasoning skills. "

That is because you merely state your opinion (without basis or evidence) of my postings.

I have too many times commented on your apparent desire to be a teacher who merely writes "poorly written" on student essays without a basis or explanation.

I have compiled with your (one sided) demands to provide proof or citations for my statements. Why can't you?

The bottom line is that the oldest publicly known copy of the Quran was written by a committee who picked and chose what they wanted to put in it. The resulting text still needed clarification. You may not like the way I phrase it, but it is true. That is why I believe the Quran is the product of man as is imperfect. Show me otherwise.

Provide verifiable proof that it is not imperfect and I will denounce my views and dedicate my life to the protection of the Quran and will embrace Islam.

If you can not, will you admit that the current publicly known version of the Quran is imperfect?

Andalus

Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187

Posted: 31 October 2006 at 9:44pm

StephenC wrote:

Andulas

"Clarifiaction is from the imperfectness of man, not the imperfectness of revelation."

I agree and if someone puts a clarification in an otherwise perfect text, then the text becomes imperfect!

Mud into water produces muddy water.

Another sign of your ignorance. The Quran is in Arabic only. If there is a clarificaiton in the text, then the text is not longer the Quran, but instead, it is tafisr.

It is obvious you are going to drag this out to 50,000 lines of grabage. You are going to grab onto even the smallest , trivial points and make sure that your poorly constructed conclusions remain without your admittance of error. You are wasting the forums time. You have been answered, and replied to, and no one wants to go round and around with you.

You have been answered, take it or leave it.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

StephenC

Guest Group

Joined: 16 September 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 264

Posted: 31 October 2006 at 9:39pm

Andulas

"I stated that the followers put together an authoritative written copy."

How in the world is it possible for it to be an authoritative written copy if:

A. Muhammad, the only one hearing the "voice" was dead,

B. God or his angels did not put a "seal of approval" on it.

Or are you claiming that the entire membership of the committee attended ALL of Muhammad's sermons! Or was it presented to those who did attend ALL of Muhammad's sermons and they "Authorized it?"

Be realistic!

Andalus

Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187

Posted: 31 October 2006 at 9:38pm

StephenC wrote:

Andulas

"And nothing you quoted above is your own, I addressed YOUR CONLUSIONS."

Of course the quoted above is not my own. I am following your onesided demand that I provide proof of my positions!!!!

What exactly do you think my CONCLUSIONS are?

Again your lack of education shows.

The quotes are evidence, your proof is your argument, or rather, lack of argument.

Your arguments are problematic. You refuse to acknowledge any point given to you about your bad reasoning skills.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

Andalus

Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187

Posted: 31 October 2006 at 9:35pm

StephenC wrote:

Andulas

"Men did not subtract from it."

Please see above especially "destroy the variant recensions."

please learn what variant is.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

Andalus

Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187

Posted: 31 October 2006 at 9:33pm

StephenC wrote:

Andulas

"The Quran was not edited."

Then why does Islamicity.com state:

"Of much greater importance to Islam, however, was 'Uthman's compilation of the text of the Quran as revealed to the Prophet. Realizing that the original message from God might be inadvertently distorted by textual variants, he appointed a committee to collect the canonical verses and destroy the variant recensions."

This sure sounds to me like the definition of "edit." What is YOUR definition of "edit?"

variant means it was not the Quran. So the Quran was not edited. Instead of trying to ask st**id questions in order to try and stump Muslims why not spend the time to learn about it.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

StephenC

Guest Group

Joined: 16 September 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 264

Posted: 31 October 2006 at 9:33pm

Andulas

"We are not born know Arabic, or the context of the historical setting, or the Sunnah. To say that if something is explained implies it is imperfect is simply a non sequitur."

If I told you to "Go over there." Would that be a "perfect" direction? No, because you do not know where I am and you do not know where I am indicating.

Compare my directions to the Quranic directions about pilgrimage.