The "Idolatry" stamp...

E.S. wrote: I've noticed Muslims and many Christians from other congregations label Catholics as idol worshippers. A question to some. I'm sure many of you carry pictures of your children, parents, siblings, etc.. in your wallets and at times you find yourself kissing the picture out of longing or love. Are you actually kissing the material? The paper? The ink? No your kissing the representation of the person. In the early years of the Church there were many instances where cult worship of an image such as a statue for example were taking place. That was supressed by the leaders of the Church, showing that these new Christians (whom recently converted from a paganistic idol worshipping religion) still carried on there old practice only transfering it over to Christianity. This line was specifically drawn by the leaders and was stopped. Therefore you cannot label any Christian as an idol worshipper.

The commandment reads:

 4"(E)You shall not make for yourself [b]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

You shouldn't make idols of what is in heaven or on the Earth BENEATH or in the water UNDER the Earth. Of course we know our God is above, but pagan Gods are beneath, that is why the previous commandment was to not have any other Gods.

 5"(F)You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a (G)jealous God, (H)visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

DO NOT WORSHIP THEM!!! 

 6but showing lovingkindness to (I)thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

E.S. you posed a really good question here and I'd like to answer you.

The general consensus especially to adherents of the Abrahamic faiths is that all forms of idolatry is wrong. With that I'm sure Christians Jews and Muslims can agree. Now, what we run into is the complex issue of what is considered idolatry? Of course the general opinion, again, would be to revere an animate object which is of material substance and to revere it aside from revering God (or revering it more than God).

However what is considered reverence is of issue. I know exactly what Christians are saying when they say "we are not revering the image but seeking intercessors on our behalf." To Christians, "Saints" are closer to God than the humans on earth so from my understanding when I was Christian to ask a Saint (again this is done mostly by Catholics) is to ask for blessings on behalf of oneself. To the Muslim viewing this, this is nothing more than idolatry (if the Muslim looks at this for face value).

However, to the Christian it is not. It is simply seeking out God through his "beloved." As a child I never agreed with praying to replicas of Saints and/prophets. Even when I thought that I was doing the right thing I never felt like it was the right thing. Of course this is because around this time I fell out with Christianity. I really don't knock Christians that do this. Frankly, I'm not God and neither are Muslims or Jews. I believe that since God has designed our minds he can very much read them and know what is in them and know our intentions.

In some respect I think its noble. Some Christians say that they are unworthy to approach God in prayer because of their sins therefore they pray to Saints to intercede on their behalf which is one of the reasons why they pray to statues. Some believe that these replicas of Saints have some spiritual value to them. I think its a matter of personal perspective. Whether we believe that the statues have value or not is for the person to decide. I hate when we put value judgements on people especially those we disagree with.

Muslims exactly do the same thing but different. We kiss the stone because in the Hadith, the prophet kissed the stone. For an outsider, this type of action is reverence to an animate object. E.S. what this boils down is to religious opinion on the matter and I think no Muslim or Jew or Christian has any right put value judgements on the other simply because we may disagree with it. God ultimately will decide our right and wrong action.

As for your inquiry above the general Muslim opinion is Muslims do not revere the Kaa'ba although we may call it Beit'ullah or House of God we do not believe God resides inside. The circumbulation of the Kaa'ba is basically performing a ritual which others that have come before have done from the prophet Muhammad to Adam himself. I don't believe Muslims kneel before it but yes Muslims that go on the pilgrammage to Mecca do kiss the stone but not because of worship but because the prophet kissed it and it is made Sunnah. In a previous thread I made the mention that I will choose to not kiss it.

Like I said before your interpretation of this practice is that it looks like idolatry when Muslims consider it religion. Its a matter of opinion if you believe its idolatry then you believe its idolatry.

Now concerning the "humans equal to God" that Hayfa mentioned. I
believe you speak of the Saints which are purely followed by the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths.

Actually I was referring to putting Jesus (PBUH) on the same plane as God.

As far as Saints.. they may be more "pure" and be role models as such as St. Francis of Assisi. But I am not sure they as followers of God, would want you to pray to them. Most, I assume, were quite humble and would probably say you should pray directly to Your God, your Creator, The Divine.

And as Rami mentioned the intention was not idolatry, but it has turned into it. 

The Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did not want people to ever pray to him. He is not God. He is but a humble servant. And that is prboably true of any follower of God. Be it a Prophet or Saint or guru. It puts another person between you and God. And really, if God is with you all the time, within you, there is no need to bring another person into it.

Peace

I reiterate the pictures, statues are a representation of that person not the
actual person. We can easily pray to Jesus, the Virgin Mary, the saints with
or without "material". You must look at the culture where Christianity took
it's strongest roots, in Europe, and the Middle East. The "Mediterranean"
cultures have always surrounded themselves with statues or other forms
of imagery. Religious or secular. You also must remember Christianity is a
very symbolic faith probably more then most. For that many others who
do not or cannot understand that level of symbolism have taken it and
formed it into wrong impressions such as the ones believed by you and
others in this forum. When I walk by an image of the Crucifix I do not
pray to it or become saddened by the actual object, after all it is a man
made object but I am saddened by the MEANING of it. One must never
take anything literal in life for nothing can be literal. Human feelings and
thoughts and emosions cannot be seen or even truly heard at times so
humans have always developed art. A visual representation of an actual
event. Art is a MEANING (symbolic) that helps those who cannot let's say
read or "see between the lines" and helps him/her understand the
emotions discribed through the sense of vision.

Now concerning the "humans equal to God" that Hayfa mentioned. I
believe you speak of the Saints which are purely followed by the Catholic
and Eastern Orthodox faiths. Saints are not worship let me reclarify this.
Nor are they anything near God. Saints help us remember that although
humans we are and are bound to sin, we do know that there are or were
men, such as ourselves, who were born, lived, and died, like any other
human yet they lived a life worth admiring. They inspire us to become
better people. Not better Christians to each other but to all Muslims,
Jews, Hindus etc.. In order to become a saint one must have lived a life,
not even there entire life as stand up and pure beings. Miracles are also
attributed to them. When one prays to a saint he prays for example for
better health for a family member or friend to a certain saint who was
known at his time to cure or releave such woes. Saints help us become
closer to God in a way. They are also closer spiritualy to the Creator. We
pray to them but not worship them.

There are differences that need to be understood between symbolism and
taking things literally. Once the barriers of understanding these
differences are removed, you will come to understand why these are our
beliefs.