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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2008 at 8:07pm
If, as you say, they "went back to their old ways," then you must agree that they had already accepted the new way, i.e. had accepted the true God.  Perhaps they "didn't fully understand", but then that could probably be said about anyone.  It could certainly be said by anyone who was looking for an excuse for having committed Shirk.  Sura 4:48 allows no such excuses, however.  It makes no exceptions for repentance, nor for incomplete understanding.  Once having received "clear signs" of the true God, to "set up partners" with Him is to commit an unforgivable sin.
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minuteman View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

For Ron, please note that Allah will not forgive any one who dies as a pagan. If one repents and discards the idol worship etc. (i..e Shirk) then that is forgiven. But any one remains a polytheist and dies as such, he will not be forgiven. That is the meaning. There is no contradiction in the Quran.

There is no mention of repentance in sura 4:48.  It clearly and simply says "Verily, Allaah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship)."
 
Anyway, if Allah was willing to forgive the sin of Shirk after repentance, how would that make it different from any other sin?  Surely Allah is merciful and forgives all sins (or at least "(anything else) to whom He wills") if we sincerely repent.
 
 Ron your question has put me in some difficulty. You are right about what you have said in your last post and there is no easy answer for that. My answer was only that which I had posted previously. But you have raised a good question about that now. So I have to look for some reply. Please see below:
 
[4:44] Hast thou not seen those who were given a portion of the Book? They buy error and desire that you too may lose the way.
[4:45] And Allah knows your enemies well. And sufficient is Allah as a Friend, and sufficient is Allah as a helper.
[4:46] There were some among the Jews who pervert words from their proper places . And they say, 'We hear and we disobey' and 'hear us and may God's Word never be heard by you,' and they say, 'Ra'ina.' They say all this twisting with their tongues and seeking to injure the Faith. And if they had said, 'We hear and we obey,' and 'hear thou,' and 'Unzurna,' it would have been better for them and more upright. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief; so they believe but little.
[4:47] O ye people of the Book! Believe in what We have now sent down, fulfilling that which is with you, before We destroy some of your leaders and turn them on their backs or curse them as We cursed the people of the Sabbath. And the decree of Allah is bound to be fulfilled.
[4:48] Surely, Allah will not forgive that a partner be associated with Him; but He will forgive whatever is short of that to whomsoever He pleases. And whoso associates partners with Allah has indeed devised a very great sin.
[4:49] Hast thou not seen those who hold themselves to be pure? Nay, it is Allah who purifies whomsoever He pleases, and they will not be wronged a whit.
[4:50] See how they forge a lie against Allah! And sufficient is that as a manifest sin.
 
I have provided the verses prior and the afterward verses to the number 4:48 verse under discussion here. Please note that this verse 4:48 is a special warning to the people of the books. It is clearly for the people of the books, Jews, christians and Muslims etc that they should not ascribe partners with Allah. If they do then they will never be forgiven.
 
 So it seems that there will be no repentence for such people. Thanks to you for the correction. And good-bye to repentence for the people of the book if they do any shirk. There is no excuse for them.
 
 But others who have never had any message from God/ Allah, there case may be different. I feel that this is a reasonable reply. What do you say please.
 


Edited by minuteman - 21 April 2008 at 11:14pm
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2008 at 11:53pm
Ron, the people did as Moses told them to do. That does not mean that they understood why, they were following his lead, literally. As soon as he was no longer there to tell them what to do, they fell back into their old habits.
God knows if we truly understand that we are committing shirk or not. In Islam, intention is everything.
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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myahya View Drop Down
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Minuteman has quoted a very key verse of Quran which says that some people get stuck to some portions of Quran. This will mislead them more and more. That is why Quran says many people become misled with Quran (means misunderstanding of verses and/or fast judgments based on a portion of it) and many people get the guidance from it. That is one of the reasons I think Hadith and Sunnah is also vitally important.

In a Hadith from an infallible it is said that a few things are always hided in a few other things. Then the infallible counts them. One of them is the following:

�For everyone that sin which is the most unpleasant sin beside Allah (swt) is hided in their sins. Be extremely careful to seriously avoid  underestimating ANY of your sins (and committing it again). A small sin beside you may be not so beside Allah (swt)�

Therefore, our duty is to take a lot of care as much as possible in a sincere way (this means Taghvaa in Arabic). But about the Shirk, I think first of all we�d better to remember that �to be worshiped� is only and only the Allah�s Right. In Arabic this falls into the category of �Hagho�llah�. We can not judge if Allah (swt) forgives a Moshrik or not then He is just or not. This is DIRECT Right of Allah (swt). However, when Allah (swt) forgives a Moshrik, this doesn�t mean the Moshrik is not a loser on the Last day, does it?

As much as I know from Islam teachings, I can say that if a person be sinful and unjust to other people then Allah (swt) will NOT forgive that person on the Last day unless those people (who have been sinfully and unjustly behaved by the corresponding person) get satisfied and/or forgive that corresponding person. In Arabic this falls into the category of �Hagho�nnaas�.

Minuteman: �All the companions of the prophet s.a.w.s. were polytheists (Mushrik)��

I am sorry but I have to disagree here. We can not say ALL of them were necessarily Mushrik even if there is one exception.

Shasta'sAunt: the people did as Moses told them to do...

I am sorry but this is not a good excuse for them. Moses (as) surely didn't want them to be like a good trained animal. I think he had told them "WHY" for sure ...

Edited by myahya - 23 April 2008 at 1:23am
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2008 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

LOL!!  I knew you would jump on that one. If a person takes the time and effort to study and read the Bible with an open heart there are no contradictions.
 
GOD makes His own rules.  HE is so HOLY.  We are talking all sins hear not just minor, any way how does one measure how major or minor sins are?
 
believer, let me use here something you use often, "LoL"
 
I am sorry but  I think you are a bit short sighted in your advice. It should be open minded not open heart. If I follow my open heart, trust me I will fall, I will not make it to a desired hereafter as there is too much wrong, sin and lust everywhere, for "the open heart approach".  
It is for that and because God knew it, God has asked us to use our mind rather. In Islam through Quran, God challanges the mind and intellectual of a person. And trust me and may be your own experience in real life may have revealed to you that open and alert mind works, not open heart.
Having said that, and using open and alert mind, I have showed you  a few of the Bible's contradictions on this board, even Christian scholars agree and admit to such contradictions. And remember the old rule, a mistake not corrected will lead to many mistakes.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 22 April 2008 at 3:40pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:16pm

Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

I have provided the verses prior and the afterward verses to the number 4:48 verse under discussion here. Please note that this verse 4:48 is a special warning to the people of the books. It is clearly for the people of the books, Jews, christians and Muslims etc that they should not ascribe partners with Allah. If they do then they will never be forgiven.
 
 So it seems that there will be no repentence for such people. Thanks to you for the correction. And good-bye to repentence for the people of the book if they do any shirk. There is no excuse for them.
 
 But others who have never had any message from God/ Allah, there case may be different. I feel that this is a reasonable reply. What do you say please.

What do I say?  First, I say that it is a pleasure to discuss with an honourable man (woman?) who will admit to being "in some difficulty" and having "no easy answer".  It is so rare to encounter such intellectual honesty, especially on the Internet.  Thank you for that. Clap

But back to the subject: I think if there is a way to resolve the contradiction it would have to be in the definition of "shirk".  If shirk is unforgivable, and Allah forgave the Israelites, then it follows that the Israelites did not commit shirk.

I have always been puzzled by the phrase "setting up partners with Allah".  If Allah had meant idolatry, or worshipping other god(s), why didn't He just say that?

I think the answer is that the Golden Calf is not a "partner" with Allah -- it is a replacement for Him.  The same can be said about worshipping other gods, even polytheism.  Those who worship other gods do not know Allah.  They are ignorant but not evil.

To me, "setting up partners" would be to believe in Allah and the Quran, but to claim that Allah is not sufficient -- that He needs a "partner" to complete His message and establish His authority.  Such a message implies that Allah is a weak, inadequate God.  Moreover, it corrupts the message of Islam from within, whereas Golden Calves and other competing religions can only attack it from the outside.  I can see why Allah would find such corruption treasonous and unforgivable.

Frankly, I think the sin of shirk was a specific warning to Muslims not to treat Mohammad as a partner to Allah.  Allah's message, the Quran, is sufficient and complete.  It does not need to be, and must not be, augmented with the Hadith or the Sunnah.  As great as Muhammad may have been, he was only the messenger of Islam, not a co-author.

But I am not a Muslim, so what do I know, eh? Wink
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myahya View Drop Down
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Points: 222 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote myahya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:54am

Ron: �It does not need to be, and must not be, augmented with the Hadith or the Sunnah.�

I agree with this sentence. No real Muslim or Momen arguments Quran using Hadith or Sunnah. If you have seen or felt such a manner, it is a perverse manner or a misunderstanding. This is why the essential criterion to understand whether a written Hadith is right or not, is to check them with Quran.

Edited by myahya - 23 April 2008 at 1:08am
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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"Frankly, I think the sin of shirk was a specific warning to Muslims not to treat Mohammad as a partner to Allah.  Allah's message, the Quran, is sufficient and complete.  It does not need to be, and must not be, augmented with the Hadith or the Sunnah.  As great as Muhammad may have been, he was only the messenger of Islam, not a co-author."

Muslims knew that the Prophet was just a man.
 
After the Prophet Mohammed died, the people were in disbelief and dark despair.  Abu Bakr made this speech to the people:  'And now, he who worships Muhammad(PBUH) Muhammad is dead now. But he who worships Allah, He is Ever Living and He never dies. Allah says: 3:144 Muhammad is no more than an apostle: many Were the apostle that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah. but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude."
 
There is a huge difference between The Quran and the Hadith and the Sunnah of The Prophet.  One is The Word of God, the others are the customs and practices of The Messenger of God. We are to take The Word of God as our law and the Hadith and Sunnah as our example.
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 23 April 2008 at 1:50am
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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