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What is Shirk?
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abuzaid View Drop Down
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Points: 163 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuzaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2008 at 12:10am

There is no fixed belief in hinduism, almost everyone among hindus have his own idea of religion and God. For a person to be hindu it is not necessary to believe in trimurthy (Brahma, Vishnu and mahesh or shiva). Whoever claim to be hindus and does not associate himself with any other religion is hindu.

In my personal experience after speaking to many hindus, though their belief is not clear they believe in one God who is master and creator of heaven and earth. Sometime they call Him Eshwar, prameshwar or pramatama. They never claim that Brahma, Vishnu or mahesh are Pramatama. So, they do believe in one greatest God along with many dieties.
 
I am from India and many of my work associates are hindus.
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 6:11pm
Hi,
I agree with abuzaid's understanding here. Once I heard a Hindu say that Hiduism in not bound to time. What he meant was that with time a Hindu's ideology evolves and so does its believes and teachings.
What I will add here is the broader Islamic concept that Adam (pbuh) was first man and first prophet who was taught the same belief about God as we have today in Islam. Thus all humanity once recieved true guidance, it was only after that people choose to leave it for something other than that. And as the Hindu's idea that their belief evolves with time does offer a proof of that.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 28 April 2008 at 6:14pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by abuzaid abuzaid wrote:

In my personal experience after speaking to many hindus, though their belief is not clear they believe in one God who is master and creator of heaven and earth. Sometime they call Him Eshwar, prameshwar or pramatama. They never claim that Brahma, Vishnu or mahesh are Pramatama. So, they do believe in one greatest God along with many dieties.
 
I am from India and many of my work associates are hindus.
 
Maybe you should give one of your work associates a copy of the Quran, and ask them if it describes any of their gods.  When they say no, tell them that that is impossible, that they must believe in Allah even if they don't know it.  Then stand well back. Wink
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abuzaid View Drop Down
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Points: 163 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuzaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

and ask them if it describes any of their gods
 
You have come out from the misconception that they only believe in "gods" and not God. Instead of asking me to do this exercise don't you think you too have to gain some more knowledge about hindusim. The most ancient and authentic books of hindusm (vedas) talk only about one and only God.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2008 at 4:12pm
Okay, this is getting me nowhere.  I started this discussion to get some feedback on what Muslims thought about Shirk, but I've allowed myself to be drawn into a debate about Hinduism. Confused
 
Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that all Hindus believe in Allah, whether they know it or not.  In that case, I have a few other questions:
 
1. Do all polytheists believe in Allah?
2. Are all Hindus, and/or all polytheists, guilty of Shirk?
3. If so, does that mean there is no hope of forgiveness for them, even if they convert to Islam?
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abuzaid View Drop Down
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Points: 163 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuzaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2008 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

1. Do all polytheists believe in Allah?
Human being by nature is created to believe in Allah, even if a person denies belief in Allah he is in the state of denial.
This is what we understand from the verse.
7:172 When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":
 
This is testification indicates inherent belief in Allah, irrespective of claim of that person. Even when an atheist claim that he does not believe in God, he does.
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

2. Are all Hindus, and/or all polytheists, guilty of Shirk?
Whoever worship anybody beside Lord of Heaven and earth, whoever claim to have more than one Lord of heaven and earth. Whoever, claim that anybody other than God shares the power and attributes of God are mushrik.
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

3. If so, does that mean there is no hope of forgiveness for them, even if they convert to Islam?
If a person dies in the state of shirk, there is no hope of forgiveness. What is counted is the state of person at the time of death. Many of companions of Prophet Mohammed PBUH were comitting shirk before Islam and after Islam all the sins were cleared.
The verse that talks about shirk being unforgivable is in case of not repenting. God may forgive others sins if a person dies without repenting also.


Edited by abuzaid - 30 April 2008 at 1:58am
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2008 at 6:20pm

Originally posted by abuzaid abuzaid wrote:

This is testification indicates inherent belief in Allah, irrespective of claim of that person. Even when an atheist claim that he does not believe in God, he does.

Are you saying that all atheists are liars?  Or that they believe in God, but they just don't believe that they believe? Confused

Quote The verse that talks about shirk being unforgivable is in case of not repenting. God may forgive others sins if a person dies without repenting also.

The verse doesn't say anything about repenting, and I would have thought that repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness anyway.  Is there some other verse in the Quran that suggests to you that shirk can be forgiven if the sinner repents?



Edited by Ron Webb - 30 April 2008 at 6:22pm
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abuzaid View Drop Down
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Points: 163 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuzaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2008 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Are you saying that all atheists are liars?  Or that they believe in God, but they just don't believe that they believe?  Confused
Actually this is something to do with deep human psychology. Once they honestly realise that their faith does not give all the answers, rather create more confusion they have to take a stand. Unlike other chrsitians they honestly take a clear stand that christianity has some major problems. Yet, out of their arrogance they does not want to look into other religion for the answers of said questions. Sometime, they are programmed to think in some specific terms and direction which force them to dislike terms and methodology of other religion. Sometime they are programmed only to hate other religions. Because of all these problems, neither they get satisfied with thier religion nor they look for answers in other religion. So, they turn out to be atheist just because of their own wish. At time it is possible that a claimed atheist may not understand his own thinking process. What I have mentioned above may not be a conscious decision, but may be it is something in their non-conscious.
 
Another reason is that many does not like religious rulings because it restricts their desires. So, the moment they realise that something is going to restrict their desire they avoid it and does not take it seriously.
So, I agree that atheist are liars, or they believe in God, but they just don't believe that they believe?
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

The verse doesn't say anything about repenting, and I would have thought that repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness anyway.  Is there some other verse in the Quran that suggests to you that shirk can be forgiven if the sinner repents?
Before I quote anything from Quran, you should know little bit about Islamic history. Prophet Mohammed PBUH, started preaching religion of God when almost whole of Arabian penninsula was sunk in shirk. If shirk can't be forgiven, then the whole preaching of Islam is in vain. Why did Prophet Mohammed give Da'wah to mushriks? We do not require any verse for specifically to mention that shirk can be forgiven in case of repentance. This is the very basic meaning of Islamic da'wah. We believe that when christians worship Jesus, they make shirk of highest degree becase they believe that Jesus is God almightly! They associate a partner to God in the "SELF" of God where as others associates parrners, in worship or attributes.
 
Repentance is pre-requisite to forgiveness?
for minor sins repnetance is not a pre-requisite and for major sins repentance in a pre-requisite. This is general rules scholars have derived. This is not something God have specifically promised us.
God have authority, He reserves full right to catch us for minor sins and He is merciful enough to forgive our major sins even without repentance. There is no such mathematical rule for forgiveness, it is between a slave and His Lord.
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