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God�s commands
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Points: 1397 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2008 at 4:34am

Good point Ron-

"Frankly, I think you are confusing leadership with authority, and that is why I am becoming concerned about shirk.  To recognize Muhammad as a temporal leader, giving commands to his contemporaries, is legitimate; but to transform his words into timeless doctrine is to give him the kind of authority that properly belongs to Allah, and thus to make him a partner with Allah.  That's the way I see it anyway."
 
Quran only Muslims!!
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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honeto View Drop Down
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Hi Ron,
 
you wrote: "Well, in the first place it seems to me that "following the Prophet" was intended to apply only to Muhammad's contemporaries.  I don't think it's possible to follow a leader who is dead, unless one intends on following him into the grave.

Even for his contemporaries, however, following the Prophet meant following him in worshipping according to the Quran, not adding other "sayings" not already there.  So I guess the question is, do the hadith add anything new, or do they simply interpret what is already there?  For that we need to discuss specific examples, as I have requested below."

Let me say this, as a believer, for me the understanding is that prophet's role was to show the message in practice as an example. At the same time he was to explain things in practice. For example, The Quran gives us the command of praying or offering Salath at fixed times. It does not tell us how to offer the Salath, through the prophet's pratice and explanation, those around him learned how to do Salath or wash before entering into Salath. It is not that with his death we have to leave those examples and practices.
I think you are not so right but wrong when you say "I don't think it's possible to follow a leader who is dead, unless one intends on following him into the grave." Let me say this no one has left the Newton's Law after his death . Or no one has left "democracy" after the death of those who are said to be its fathers, and are long gone.??
The Quran is a revelation given to Mohammed (pbuh) to guide humanity into worshipping their creator alone. Quran is not his word but God's.  As I said he explained what was needed and when people asked him about something that was not clear, he explained. That explaination was narrated by his companions and became what we know now as the Hadith.
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 06 May 2008 at 4:10pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Ron: �That's not much help for those of us who cannot communicate with the dead.  Let me rephrase: I don't think it's possible to follow a leader if you cannot communicate with him, nor he with you.�

To add some to good explanation of Honeto, I have to say human communication is not limited only to physical or visual (material) communication. What you mean by �death� can only and only be defined with respect to the prophet�s body. Generally the death of a body doesn�t show what one may consider:

Quran (3:169) And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's Way as dead Nay, They are alive and are provided sustenance from their Lord.

Ron �However, I can see that Muhammad is adapting his instructions to suit the circumstances (delaying a prayer because it is too hot, for instance).  Again, that is the true function of a leader -- a function that he cannot perform for us here and now.�

The act of adapting was an instruction too. From Quran and Sunnah (true sayings and actions of the Prophet), even the adaptation in that example, the experts had been (and are) concluding and extrapolating the functions which are needed at any time by using wisdom and intelligence. That is called Fiqh in Islam. There is no error from the prophet�s side. He also did and completed what he was supposed (by Allah swt) to do. The rest is our responsibility to learn and find out what we need here and now.

Ron �Frankly, I think you are confusing leadership with authority, and that is why I am becoming concerned about shirk.  To recognize Muhammad as a temporal leader, giving commands to his contemporaries, is legitimate; but to transform his words into timeless doctrine is to give him the kind of authority that properly belongs to Allah, and thus to make him a partner with Allah. �

Both leadership and authority is given to the prophet by Allah swt. I provided both logical reasons and evidence from Quran to show it.

Ron:� That's the way I see it anyway.�

As I have stated before, a Muslim is a person who believes and bears that there is nothing which can be worshiped except Allah swt the only One without partner, and that Mohammad (sawa) is His slave and messenger. Such a Muslim believes in Quran and does his/her best to comprehend it and act according to it sincerely.  Till here there is no contradiction with �the way you see� right? If yes, do not afraid. Go ahead and do so sincerely. I do not continue discussing more details and only pray: Allah swt may guide all of us to the right pass without deviation.
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 6:13pm

Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

For example, The Quran gives us the command of praying or offering Salath at fixed times. It does not tell us how to offer the Salath, through the prophet's pratice and explanation, those around him learned how to do Salath or wash before entering into Salath. It is not that with his death we have to leave those examples and practices.

Do you think Allah forgot to tell you how to offer Salath, or how to wash?  Do you think He "ran out of words", or ran out of time or patience, when He dictated the Quran?  Or do you think He delegated those duties to His "partner"?

Or is it perhaps possible that he left it out because it was never intended to be part of Islam?  Could it be that he doesn't really care how you offer Salath as long as you do so sincerely and regularly?  Is it possible He felt that Muslims ought to be smart enough to figure out how to wash their hands on their own?

A daisy is an excellent example of a flower.  But not all flowers have to be daisies.
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 6:26pm

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

To add some to good explanation of Honeto, I have to say human communication is not limited only to physical or visual (material) communication.

Are you sure that is an Islamic point of view?  If you claim that Allah still speaks to you, and you to him, then I can understand that; but if you claim that Muhammad still speaks to you or vice versa, then that again sounds to me like shirk.

Quote I do not continue discussing more details and only pray: Allah swt may guide all of us to the right pass without deviation.

Salaam, myahya, and thank you for the discussion.
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Ron : "If you claim that Allah still speaks to you, and you to him, then I can understand that; but if you claim that Muhammad still speaks to you or vice versa, then that again sounds to me like shirk."

I didn't talk about speaking to the prophet although it can also happen if Allah swt wills.  As far as I know it doesn't relate to the definition of shirk (at least in Islam Smile). Anyway, thanks for discussion




Edited by myahya - 08 May 2008 at 1:01am
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2008 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

For example, The Quran gives us the command of praying or offering Salath at fixed times. It does not tell us how to offer the Salath, through the prophet's pratice and explanation, those around him learned how to do Salath or wash before entering into Salath. It is not that with his death we have to leave those examples and practices.

Do you think Allah forgot to tell you how to offer Salath, or how to wash?  Do you think He "ran out of words", or ran out of time or patience, when He dictated the Quran?  Or do you think He delegated those duties to His "partner"?

Or is it perhaps possible that he left it out because it was never intended to be part of Islam?  Could it be that he doesn't really care how you offer Salath as long as you do so sincerely and regularly?  Is it possible He felt that Muslims ought to be smart enough to figure out how to wash their hands on their own?

A daisy is an excellent example of a flower.  But not all flowers have to be daisies.

Ron,
I don't beleive that God forgot to give us what he intended, as you suggested. I don't know what you mean by "partner", partner in teaching good? or ??
We, in Islam do not partner prophets to God, in godhead.
 
God has always sent a guide to mankind and not just the guidance, othrwise He would just drop a message from above.
I, as a Muslim do not see any issue with a guide a teacher, a prophet to teach me what the book meant, or how to offer Salath, or how to be an example for others. 
If we all could do good with the books in school, we would not need those teachers that are high in demand, specially the qualified ones.
Can you do good in a subjects without a teacher,without your parents teaching you your ABCs?
Why a more important than subject of Maths be done without a teacher. The Prophet was there to teach and explain things we have trouble absorbing.
Hasan 
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Since I started reading the Bible, I am puzzled by its contents. This time its the commands God is quoted to give to Joshua. I am appalled that God would be so unjust to command and aid this kind of behavior.

Joshua 8:1-2

Now the LORD said to Joshua: �Do not be afraid, nor be dismayed; take all the people of war with you, and arise, go up to Ai. See, I have given into your hand the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land.  And you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king. Only its spoil and its cattle you shall take as booty for yourselves. Lay an ambush for the city behind it.�

And here is what was done in Jericho.

Joshua 6:20 So the people shouted when the priests blew the trumpets. And it happened when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat. Then the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.
22 But Joshua had said to the two men who had spied out the country, �Go into the harlot�s house, and from there bring out the woman and all that she has, as you swore to her.� 23 And the young men who had been spies went in and brought out Rahab, her father, her mother, her brothers, and all that she had. So they brought out all her relatives and left them outside the camp of Israel. 24 But they burned the city and all that was in it with fire. Only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD. 25 And Joshua spared Rahab the harlot, her father�s household, and all that she had. So she dwells in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.
26 Then Joshua charged them at that time, saying, �Cursed be the man before the LORD who rises up and builds this city Jericho; he shall lay its foundation with his firstborn, and with his youngest he shall set up its gates.�
27 So the LORD was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout all the country.

I learn and believe through Quran that God commands justice and restraint, and does not order indiscrminate destruction of life and property as represented in these verses of the Bible or am I misreading them?

Hasan

 

 

God said that first:-

Deuteronomy 20:10-12
"In case you draw near to a city to fight against it, you must also announce to it terms of peace. 11 And it must occur that if it gives a peaceful answer to you and it has opened up to you, it must even occur that all the people found in it should become yours for forced labor, and they must serve you. 12 But if it does not make peace with you, and it actually makes war with you and you have to besiege it,
 
Give in to God or pay the price!!
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