IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Does God beget ?  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Does God beget ?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4344454647 53>
Author
Message
robin View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 595
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:29am
To Hasan

As a matter of principle I will mention only a few, as even one is enough to prove inconsistancy of the Bible. Here is an example of such contradictions:

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters�yes, even his own life�he cannot be my disciple.

 

�HATE� IN SCRIPTURE CAN HAVE SHADES OF MEANING E.G.:-

Genesis 29:30-31

Then he had relations also with Rachel and also expressed more love for Rachel than for Leah, and he went serving with him for yet seven years more. 31 When Jehovah came to see that Leah was hated, he then opened her womb, but Rachel was barren. 

Leah was hated� MEANS THAT �LEAH� WAS LOVED LESS THAN RACHEL, AS THEY HAD CHILDREN!

IN OTHER WORDS; ONES OWN FAMILY MUST BE LOVED LESS THAN ONE LOVES GOD OR GOD MUST BE OUR FIRST LOVE!

Matthew 19:19

Honor [your] father and [your] mother, and, You must love your neighbor as yourself.�. . .

SO IF ONE IS TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBOUR HOW MUCH MORE SO ONE'S OWN FAMILY, AS CHRISTIANITY STARTS AT HOME!

 

TO SUM UP THE ABOVE; In the Scriptures the word �hate� has several shades of meaning. It may denote intense hostility, sustained ill will often accompanied by malice. Such hate may become a consuming emotion seeking to bring harm to its object. �Hate� may also signify a strong dislike but without any intent to bring harm to the object, seeking instead to avoid it because of a feeling of loathing toward it. The Bible also employs the word �hate� to mean loving to a lesser degree. (Gen. 29:31, 33; Deut. 21:15, 16) For example, Jesus Christ said: �If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple.� (Luke 14:26) Obviously Jesus did not mean that his followers were to feel hostility or loathing toward their families and toward themselves, as this would not be in agreement with the rest of the Scriptures.�Compare Mark 12:29-31; Eph 5:28, 29, 33.

 

 

If Jesus has said that, then we must not find him say anything that would negativate this statment, yet we find this:

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE CONTEXT:-

CONTEXT IS SHOWING THE DIFFERANCE BETWEEN THOSES THAT DO THINGS GODS WAY OR THE DEVILS WAY:-

1 John 3:8-10

He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from [the] beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the Devil. 9 Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God. 10 The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. . .

1 John 3:15

Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer, and YOU know that no manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him.

NOTE WHAT ALSO IS BEFORE THE ABOVE TEXT:-

1 John 3:11-12

For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother [were] righteous.

�CAIN� WAS LIKE SATAN A MANSLAYER, THUS SHOWING A CAIN LIKE FEELINGS TOWARD A FELLOW BELEIVER CAN LEAD TO MURDER!   A WARNING TO CULTIVATE LOVE; NOT HATE!

 

So, according to his own words, since he is preaching to hate, he is a murderer also?

 

Here is another one, this one talks that a person bears his own sin and pays for his/her own sins:

 

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

THIS SHOWS THAT ACTIONS BY AN INDIVIDUAL WILL HAVE CONSIQUENCES THAT THEY WILL HAVE TO BEAR THEMSELVES!

THIS IS ADDRESSED TO INDIVIDELS!

 

Now if the Bible said something contradictory to that principle, then its not from God. And ironically, we do find statement in the same book that quotes God of having said quite contradictory to what have been said in the above statment, here it is:

Exodus 20:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.

THIS SHOWS THAT FALSE WORSHIP CAN BE TAUGHT FROM FATHER TO SON AND SO ON, AND WILL HAVE LONG TERM BAD RESULTS!

THIS IS ADDRESSED TO THE NATION AS A WHOLE; THAT WHAT THEY DO WILL LEAVE A LEGECY THAT CAN HAVE BAD CONSEQUENCES FOR ALL!

IF THEY FOLLOW THE WORSHIP OF PAGAN GODS THEN THE HATE THE TRUE GOD!

 

THE ABOVE 2 TEXTS SHOW 2 THINGS

A) A COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBLITY,

B) AN INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBLITY!

 

Do we need more?

YES!
 
IT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE THAT IS AT FAULT.
CONTEXT IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!


Edited by robin - 17 June 2008 at 4:44am
Back to Top
honeto View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male Islam
Joined: 20 March 2008
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2487
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 5:46pm
Robin,
sorry, but to me those are clear contradictions and nothing less. As to me their obvious meanings are addressed in the words. And when that's the case we need not to look into their hidden meaning, which is just a distraction from their obvious blunt truth, and an effort to cover it up.
 
These quotes are too clear in thir meanings to be further explained:

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters�yes, even his own life�he cannot be my disciple.

If Jesus has said that, then we must not find him say anything that would negativate this statment, yet we find this:

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

So, according to his own words, since he is preaching to hate, he is a murderer also?
 
Here is another one, this one talks that a person bears his own sin and pays for his/her own sins:
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Now if the Bible said something contradictory to that principle, then its not from God. And ironically, we do find statement in the same book that quotes God of having said quite contradictory to what have been said in the above statment, here it is:
 
Exodus 20:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 17 June 2008 at 5:47pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Back to Top
robin View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 595
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 12:41am
Hasan you have just turned your ears off!
 
That is what most Cathloics do when you show them the what the Bible really says!
 
This reminds me of:-
 
Isaiah 6:10-12
Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves."
 
Not a good place to be at all Hasan!


Edited by robin - 18 June 2008 at 4:39am
Back to Top
minuteman View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Joined: 25 March 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1642
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 7:28am
 
 robin, we understand the many good things told by Jesus. But you people try to put real meanings into parables or symbolic words. We understand that every word Jesus said has been true, about the bread etc.
 
 There was something about the son of man coming from heavens.  i.e. son of man, I hope Jesus. If he says, I am the light, I am the way, I am alpha and omega, the christians do not understand it. But we Muslims understand and believe those things as true.
 
 The next most difficult thing is that if there is anything useful in the bible pointing clearly to Quran or Muhammad, the christians cleverly have put a blanket on all those things of Deut 18 and John 16 etc. It is better to be reasonable and just (honest) to gain something. Muslims do not lose anything. They have jesus and Moses and Muhammad. Thanks to Allah. They have the Torah and the Injeel and the Quran too.


Edited by minuteman - 18 June 2008 at 7:30am
Back to Top
robin View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 595
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 
 robin, we understand the many good things told by Jesus. But you people try to put real meanings into parables or symbolic words. We understand that every word Jesus said has been true, about the bread etc.
 
 There was something about the son of man coming from heavens.  i.e. son of man, I hope Jesus. If he says, I am the light, I am the way, I am alpha and omega, the christians do not understand it. But we Muslims understand and believe those things as true.
 
 The next most difficult thing is that if there is anything useful in the bible pointing clearly to Quran or Muhammad, the christians cleverly have put a blanket on all those things of Deut 18 and John 16 etc. It is better to be reasonable and just (honest) to gain something. Muslims do not lose anything. They have jesus and Moses and Muhammad. Thanks to Allah. They have the Torah and the Injeel and the Quran too.
 
Humans do not need the Quran as the Bible it complete for Human needs:-
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
 
and when it was completed nothing was to follow it:-
 
Revelation 22:18-19
"I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.
Back to Top
honeto View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male Islam
Joined: 20 March 2008
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2487
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

Hasan you have just turned your ears off!
 
That is what most Cathloics do when you show them the what the Bible really says!
 
This reminds me of:-
 
Isaiah 6:10-12
Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves."
 
Not a good place to be at all Hasan!
 
Robin,
you are fighting, we don't do that here, this is a place of learning. 
You have failed to address my quotes directly rather with your lengthy babble and jargan you think to impress others without any logic and material proof. You deny those contradictions that are obvious for me and to many others. You want me to believe blindly as yourself and not to reason and object to what you say, while God asks us to reason, and use logic and capabilities He has given us to seperate Truth from falshood, what a shame that you profess to follow a great prophet yet don't practice what he taught.
But as I am bound by teachings of my belief, Islam,  I cannot fight with you on this matter, and since there is no complusion, I can only pray and hope that you come to your senses whether you are a person or a group and not disregard the truth, because that is the only criteria in achieving salvation, the rest leads us to the fire.
 
9:112 Those that turn (to God. in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of God,: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by God.- (These do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers.
 
Hasan
 
 


Edited by honeto - 18 June 2008 at 4:32pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Back to Top
Angel View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Robin,
sorry, but to me those are clear contradictions and nothing less. As to me their obvious meanings are addressed in the words. And when that's the case we need not to look into their hidden meaning, which is just a distraction from their obvious blunt truth, and an effort to cover it up.
 
mmm....really, so when muslims go and explain things in the way robin has, its a different story.
 
I've had contradictions explained, they read clearly to me but getting them explained is like giving a personal opinion, there is no fact behind it. I've a list of condradictions but 2 i will show here as this is not the place but just to show you that some muslims do the same in a way. One: what is a day to God, some explain that a day is 1000 years or it could be a 24 hour period usually this is in conjuction with how long it took God to create creation. Another is about the wings of angels.
 
This is all i will say here, I will try and find the contradictions i posed some years ago, it might be at the old forum and repost again since contradictions seems to the an issue again in various threads at the moment.
 
okay, I'm gone.
 
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
Back to Top
robin View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 595
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 12:54am
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Robin,
sorry, but to me those are clear contradictions and nothing less. As to me their obvious meanings are addressed in the words. And when that's the case we need not to look into their hidden meaning, which is just a distraction from their obvious blunt truth, and an effort to cover it up.
 
mmm....really, so when muslims go and explain things in the way robin has, its a different story.
 
I've had contradictions explained, they read clearly to me but getting them explained is like giving a personal opinion, there is no fact behind it. I've a list of condradictions but 2 i will show here as this is not the place but just to show you that some muslims do the same in a way. One: what is a day to God, some explain that a day is 1000 years or it could be a 24 hour period usually this is in conjuction with how long it took God to create creation. Another is about the wings of angels.
 
This is all i will say here, I will try and find the contradictions i posed some years ago, it might be at the old forum and repost again since contradictions seems to the an issue again in various threads at the moment.
 
okay, I'm gone.
 
 

Days are not always a 24 hrs. they can be a metaphor for a period of time, e.g. according to the Bible The Last Judgment day is a 1,000 yrs, (the millennium of Christ)long:-

 

Revelation 20:6

but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

 

 

The "day" is Genesis is a metaphor for a period of time, e.g. summing up the 7 creative days of Genesis Ch. 1 and before, Genesis 2:4 says:-

 

"This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven."

 

 

The day in the above verse from Gen. 2:4 covers all the creative 7 days (1 day = 7 days) of Jehovah God's creative activity in creating the universe, "earth and heavens" thus these days are NOT 24 hrs.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4344454647 53>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.