Abrogation?

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

thank you chrysalis, yes that is what i meant.

You misunderstand Brother, if you think that analysing what the Imams did, and considering them fallible, automatically means that one is disrespecting them or not acknowledging their contribution.

if you are reffering to minutemans post then no i have not misunderstood he clearly disrespected them. 

ill refrain from exagerating anything,

There was no need for the scholars to wander into supposed fields.

this is sitting in judgment of there actions,

They thought if Allah has said Himself that He does not abrogate any verse but he brings a better one in its place. So they thought that Allah must have abrogated some verses. So they started looking for the abrogated verses in the Quran.

here he assumes to know what a sahabi [ibn umar] and the rest of Islams mujtahid imams all thought and goes on to assume what the basis of there actions are all without actually bothering to learn the science they left behind.

Which ever verse of the Quran they could not understand or reconcile,

here he assumes to know what they understood and did not understand.

There was no proof for that from the Quran.

Here he makes a blind statment about the usul they used along with the principles of tafsir which he more than likely has never learned so one can only conclude it must be above his level of understanding and knowledge.

There was no list in the Quran of the abrogated verses.

no one made the claim there was but it is a fact that sayidinah Ali compiled a Quran based on the order the verses where revealed, of which we have a partial copy [or the infomation is refrenced in various works i am not clear on that, either way the information exists] still surviving to this day.

There was no list in Hadith from the words of the prophet s.a.w.s.

i could easily ask, has he read all the ahadith there is in existance to be able to make such an absolute claim.

So why they took upon themselves the duty of abrogating or cancelling any verses of the Quran??

accuses them of inventing abrogation in which is the acusation of kufr [yes i know he didnt intend this] in its implications.

ergo this statment,

What is more, those people built a complete science on the subject of abrogation.

who specifically are "those" people.

They invented rules for the abrogation and classified some verses as abrogated only for the actions. Some verses were to be recited but not to be active any more. Some other were abrogated for the meaning only. There was a complete science on this subject. I cannot recall all the rules they invented. There was nothing about that (those rules) in the Quran and Sunnah. It was only in their minds. They felt that it should be like that.

Besides the baseless acusations he desplays a complete and utter ignorance of the usul and sciences this ummah has relied upon for 1400 years [the very same science which the modern west is built upon eg the scientific method] and by holisticlly brushing it all aside places himself above every scholar, wali, sahhabi that has said anything on Islamic law.
 

rami wrote: if you are reffering to minutemans post then no i have not misunderstood he clearly disrespected them.

This is really unfair, rami.  It is possible to disagree without being disrespectful.  In my opinion minuteman is one of the most respectful participants in these discussions.

this is sitting in judgment of there actions

Of course it is, just as you are sitting in judgement when you judge them to be correct or trustworthy or beyond question or whatever.

rami wrote: Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem thank you chrysalis, yes that is what i meant. You misunderstand Brother, if you think that analysing what the Imams did, and considering them fallible, automatically means that one is disrespecting them or not acknowledging their contribution.  rami: if you are reffering to minutemans post then no i have not misunderstood he clearly disrespected them.  ill refrain from exagerating anything,  Why would I disrespect any scholar? But this business could be a cooked one about abrogation. I know the Shias have their own Hadith and Sunnis have their own. Think of how much different are the beliefs? It is such a long time ago that things were written and nobody knows who may have interefered with the texts. I respect all scholars. But I will always use my intellect too, Insha Allah.    Instead of accusing me, why don't you please post any abrogated verse here now. Then we will come to know how much you have learned from those scholars. May be i missed the knowledge they spread in the world and you may have grabbed it. Then please come up with a few abrogated verses. And no use discussing the meaning of abrogation. Thanks. There was no need for the scholars to wander into supposed fields.    rami: this is sitting in judgment of there actions,    Of course there is no judgement from me on the scholars. But you tell me if there was any Hadith (a saying of the prophet) in this regard that "Allah has abrogated some verses in the Quran by some other verses. So be careful about them"? Is there any such thing? If it is not there then tell me what was the need of assuming that some verses were abrogated? Why they took up the challenge. You please tell  me the reason. They thought if Allah has said Himself that He does not abrogate any verse but he brings a better one in its place. So they thought that Allah must have abrogated some verses. So they started looking for the abrogated verses in the Quran.    rami:here he assumes to know what a sahabi [ibn umar] and the rest of Islams mujtahid imams all thought and goes on to assume what the basis of there actions are all without actually bothering to learn the science they left behind.   I am not a scholar. But I may have read more scholarly books on the subject. You tell me why those people started discussing and looking for the abrogated verses. Then some of them found about 500 such verses. The others had less number.    Until some other scholars understood the problems and solved the situation and reduced the number of abrogated verses to five only in the time of Shah Waliuulah Dehlavi.    Will you say that those who did that good work were also misguided and disrespectful to their senior scholars?.  No. Not at all. I have already told you that the wonders and miracles of the Quran are unlimited. The Quranic knowledge had not ascended on the old old scholars only. There were some left for the later people too. Which ever verse of the Quran they could not understand or reconcile, here he assumes to know what they understood and did not understand. There was no proof for that from the Quran. Here he makes a blind statment about the usul they used along with the principles of tafsir which he more than likely has never learned so one can only conclude it must be above his level of understanding and knowledge. There was no list in the Quran of the abrogated verses. no one made the claim there was but it is a fact that sayidinah Ali compiled a Quran based on the order the verses where revealed, of which we have a partial copy [or the infomation is refrenced in various works i am not clear on that, either way the information exists] still surviving to this day. There was no list in Hadith from the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. i could easily ask, has he read all the ahadith there is in existance to be able to make such an absolute claim. So why they took upon themselves the duty of abrogating or cancelling any verses of the Quran?? accuses them of inventing abrogation in which is the acusation of kufr [yes i know he didnt intend this] in its implications. ergo this statment,   What is more, those people built a complete science on the subject of abrogation. who specifically are "those" people. They invented rules for the abrogation and classified some verses as abrogated only for the actions. Some verses were to be recited but not to be active any more. Some other were abrogated for the meaning only. There was a complete science on this subject. I cannot recall all the rules they invented. There was nothing about that (those rules) in the Quran and Sunnah. It was only in their minds. They felt that it should be like that. Besides the baseless acusations he desplays a complete and utter ignorance of the usul and sciences this ummah has relied upon for 1400 years [the very same science which the modern west is built upon eg the scientific method] and by holisticlly brushing it all aside places himself above every scholar, wali, sahhabi that has said anything on Islamic law.

"None of the verses we abrogate but [except] that we bring another one better than it".  In other words, Allah never abrogates a verse without providing an equal or better one.  (And by "better" I am assuming more comprehensive, more complete, not that the earlier one is wrong or inferior.)