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Andalus

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Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187

Posted: 11 September 2008 at 10:45pm

asda wrote:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html

are these the best of believers??? or....a part of the believers were staunch in their aqeedah????

Keep in mind that this thread has not stayed on topic. You have used this as an opportunity to dump Shia polemics. It is unreasonable to expect Muslims to jump and reply to every red herring you throw out. It no longer becomes a discussion, and it is simply you launching pasted claim from a shia polemical source. I am very close to closing this thread. If you want to have a seperate discussion about Fatima, or who the leaders are supposed to be, then open seperate threads. I will respond briefly to this one incident you have pasted.

Before I begin, I suspect that the website you are going to has an author who is in great need of a basic course in critical thinking. And this will become evident as we read on.

1) Your claim makes the assertion (unproven) that she asked for the property BECAUSE it was ever given to her.
2) This is a Shia distortion, as there are no books authored by the Ahl Assunat who have stated that the property did indeed belong to her, or was given to her.

3) There are no Islamic books that have established that the property was ever given to her, or that she asked for it because it was given to her.

In fact, there are strong ahadith that establish the order concerning the prophet's statement about the relationship between a prophet, his inheritance, and his family. But this does not concern you, as Shi'ites only pick out the hadith that they can use and ignore everything else.

in the hadith u hav quoted...even if i accept them as sahih...the Prophet (a.s) clearly mentions all of these merits for the companions...and not for those who went astray...who were the tru companions wen the prophet (a.s) was alive or after he died....

wsalaam

What methodology do you use to accept or reject our hadith?

You see, it matters not what hadith we give you, since you are under no obligation to believe them. Your only method so far is that the hadith must agree with the absurd supposition of your sect. Such a methodology, my friend, is completely weak and unfounded and denies credebility to your claims.

Edited by Andalus - 11 September 2008 at 10:49pm

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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asda

Senior Member

Joined: 02 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 164

Posted: 12 September 2008 at 12:45pm

My Replies are in BROWN

Saladin wrote:

....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!!�

No one is the successor of Allah. I'm sure you said it out of ignorance....

my ignorance or ures..does caliph means successor....well if it does then who's successor was h.Adam when Allah (s.w.t) has said:
When Allah said to the angels Indeed I will establish a Calipha on this earth�� [QURAN al-baqarah, 30>

wasnt the supposed calipha to be was H.Adam...and since hazrat Adam was the 1st man on earh....and if successor means caliph....then who's caliph was H.Adam???

i was just trying to show u that the whole "ummah" dint accept him as caliph....

�

Whole ummah? Munafiqs, zakat deniers, Musailama�and the other false prophets?

�

they were not anti-zakat....as history clearly states that they stopped giving zakat to the new leader after the prophet (a.s)...they were giving zakah during the time of the Prophet (a.s)...and so where is ijma now....y werent their views taken...

"Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry." (sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, p. 61.) and i want to again remind u:

[Quran 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

�

[Quran�53:4] It is naught but revealation that is revealed,�True. The Quran and everything concerning belief and worship�is by wahi. But not all sayings and actions of the Prophet were by wahi. Some of his sayings and actions were reproved by Allah in the Quran. See 66:1, 9:43, 80:1-11 and 8:67-68.

�

those were events which had hiqma in them....and it was done so that the people around would learn something....and surly the tone in the aayah i have shown u,clearly states about the fact that he does not have error in his words..

Verse 8:67-68 was a reproval for a decision the prophet took rejecting Umar al Faruq's opinion and this verse proved that the latter was right.

�

doesnt this clearly show that he was incapable of making decisions??

�

Saladin wrote:

Quran 48:18

Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance unto thee beneath the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down peace of reassurance on them, and hath rewarded them with a near victory.

To say that most of the people, who Allah attests as believers in this verse, later became unbelievers, is tantamount to disbelief. Allah would never have attested their belief if they had gone on to disbelieve and He surely would not have been pleased with the deeds of people who would become unbelievers.

well this has been debated upon and Allah (s.w.t) had kept a condition in it which the sahaab had to fullfill...even when he knew what was in their hearts...

this aayah surly does not mean the fact that they have been given a picnic holiday for thir actions...no matter wat they do...they will go to jannah..please read earlier posts...

Quran 24:23

Lo! as for those who traduce virtuous, believing women (who are) careless, cursed are they in the world and the Hereafter. Theirs will be an awful doom.

To continue slandering Aisha (ra) when Allah has attested her belief and chastity is also tantamount to disbelief.

it is a tohmat on shias that they blame Aysha of adultry (maazallah).....surly not..

infact one of the the reasons for ayesha's disbelief is her role in the battle of Jamal...against Imam ALi (a.s)....

asda

Senior Member

Joined: 02 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 164

Posted: 12 September 2008 at 3:20pm

My answers are in Brown

Andalus wrote:

asda wrote:

This is a strawman and a willfull distortion of the topic. Your claim is not a "strong point" of Sunnis which you are trying to distort.

thats a general fact...

�

What I find very telling about you is that are simply regurgitating (pasting) Shia diatribe, because in this entire reply from you, all you have done is "repeat" yourself, as if repeating various fallacies will some how make them true.

�

what do u want....from the start of the topic u want me to start talking against the belivs of the sunnis..and be rude...and lead this discussion to a sensless debate...well thats a general fact...which is accepted by shias and sunnis....well actually my 1st post is an intro to the topic....it does not refute any claims to the full...its just an expression of a view point...and thus if someone does not accept this...will debate...isnt it simple...thus i dont need to prove the sunni point...u have baseless claims...u knw..its common sense..

If it is a "general fact", then show that the general applies to particulars. You cannot assert your way through a discussion. If you will not back up your claims, then I will close this thread. It is that simple.

�

the sahaaba had made major mistakes...and i have already shown u by mentioning the Doughter of the Prophet (a.s)'s views on then...fidak is one of the points where the sahaaba do come under criticism...if u think otherwise...then i pity u....

�

Another strawman, for thinking that the companions were divine would be shirk. Hardly a "strong point" from Muslims. As far as being sent by Allah, I would love to know just how you have ascertained the mind of Allah and His relationship with mankind. I am guessing you do not have any real answers to my ojections and your points were just part of your hyporbole and over editorializing of the topic.

if the sahaaba dint exist...wud prophet muhammad (a.s)'s mission had failed??u knw the answer..

�

"u knw"..."cuz"..????? I am not one of your "texting buddies" in class.��Appearance goes a long way, and you might be taken much more serious if you used real words.

�

Its my wish...i am not giving an english exam/test....untill and unless u understand my point..its right and done from me....and for a fact...y cant we talk like gud friends....or u r one of those who r doing their best to create disunity among the ummah???

Now, about your reply, once again you did not respond to what I stated. In fact, your reply is completely irrelevant. You made a claim, and I am calling you on it. You now have comitted a fallacy of "irrelevancy".

�

1) Show that Muslims worship the sahaba?

in urdu we say, akalmand ko ishaaraa kafee hai....that was written not in the real sense...it had a hidden meaning..where the point is being made that sunnis think all the sahaaba are on "HAQ"...while the truth is in contrast..

2) Show how you are able to ascertain whether or not some was/or was not sent by God?

�

i hav already answered dat..

Thats quite a sweeping generalization. The topic of the companions is not as simplistic, nor is the view of Muslims so simplistic of the topic. A certain amount of adhab is used when approaching any of them, which does not mean that adhab for all is equivalent to worshiping for a few, many, most, or any.

well its not genralized???then we stand at the same point...cuz above i have been debating about the fact that all companions in "general" was not on haq...

�

Not only is your texting style usage of words annoying, but you are unable to put out a coherent response. Are you now asking me if your claim is true? Are you telling me it is true? If it is a "general fact", then it should not be difficult for you to establish it here and now beyond your rediculous assertions.�You seem to know more about my faith then I do. Astounding!

�

i hav clearly shown the displeasure of ahlel bayt (a.s) with the 1st rashidite caliph...and that is enough to establish the fact about the sahaaba they were against...but still u hav denied...thats astonishing to me as well..

You are able to ascertain which companions were not of God and which were? Shi'ites never seem to amaze me. Please, show us the methodology you use to determine which companion was not of God and which was? As of now, you are trying to use unargued assertions to try and smear whoever you like. If you are unable to begin providing a criteria, a case, an example, that begins to show your claim of a "general fact", then this thread is closed.

�

what do u mean by companions "of god"

just because the discussion is on...that does not mean i have not proven anything...i hav already raised some question..which hav not been answered....and u threaten me to close the thread....well well...

�

Adhab and piety are not the same things. Instead of making claims which such gaping generalizations, why not clarify your stance.

wat clarification do u need...plz clarify...

�

The same clarification I have been asking for from the beginning that you are now avoiding, in part because you are limited to copying and pasting Shia polemics, but you are unable to get into the "nitty gritty" of the discussion. Your attempt to play obtuse is entertaining.

�

i hav clarified my stance..from the very 1st post...we cant say that all the ppl with the prophet (a.s) were truthful companions....and surly some were...who were with the truth and had to bear the difficulties due to their staunch faith...

�

And you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example. You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".[/QIAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example. You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".UPTAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example. You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established"

well look at the next aayah..

�

I do not need you to give me a verse from the Quran along with your official SHi'ite exegesis of the passage. You are full of assertions, what we need is for you to establish your first, basic claims.

�

feel free to prove ure point!!!!

�

Another complex question (a fallacy), please establish that every person that came in contact with the prophet is a saint, from the position of Muslims. The rest of your question is perplexing. Please clarify.

not every person...but as u say...all the sahaaba has the "as-sakinah"...

�

About your claim, please establish this belief we have. Clarify (not a quote from your websites or another assertion).

�

See post number 3 of this thread from a sunni bro....this was his claim..

�

how are you able to read God's mind to know who He likes or does not like?

now u r making it complex...well the quran is the best way know Allah (s.w.t)...tho he is above our understanding...but we can upto a certain level.

�

It is not a complex question. There are no unargued claims buried in the premise of the question. It is not "complex". It is a a valid question pertaining to your claims.

�

i think this part of the discussion is over..as it has been answered

�

This begs the question: So what? How does this prove your sect's basic claims? I will answer for you: It does not without some manipulation and supposition.

the aayah is just an example of the point made above it...and u have taken it seperately..

�

What point was that? You have made unargued assertions, and now you want to use a verse from the Quran and then handwave your interpretation? Willful distortions do not count as valid, or even reasonable claims.

if u disagree...please feel free to prove ure claims...

Andalus wrote:

asda wrote:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: Narrated 'Aisha: (mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html are these the best of believers??? or....a part of the believers were staunch in their aqeedah????

well the topic as u knw is sahaaba...and we r looking at the topic from their varios acts...u knw as well that the sahaaba(as u claim) do come under the microscope for their role in fidak....and due to this it has a very big relevance to the topic...

infact minuteman did start discussing "khilafa and imamat" on this thread...and i did discuss with him on going on another thread to discuss that...which he ignored in his reply....so u better threaten him of closing down the thread...and not me....cuz i have shown keenness to discuss the acts of the sahaaba in this topic...

Before I begin, I suspect that the website you are going to has an author who is in great need of a basic course in critical thinking. And this will become evident as we read on.

ya i do CnP the hadeeth and Quranic Aayah...but that does not mean my post on whole is CnP....infact i do that from sunni sites as well...to avoid mistakes...

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: Narrated 'Aisha: (mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

1) Your claim makes the assertion (unproven) that she asked for the property BECAUSE it was ever given to her. 2) This is a Shia distortion, as there are no books authored by the Ahl Assunat who have stated that the property did indeed belong to her, or was given to her.

3) There are no Islamic books that have established that the property was ever given to her, or that she asked for it because it was given to her.

she asked fidak as her share of inheiritence.....and something she was sure of the fact that it was her right!!!!! and that is enough to deduce the fact that the decision of the caliph was incorrect...just keeping in mind what the Prophet (a.s) had said about her high status....well it is odd that u have given soooo much importance even a small hint of praise of sahaaba....but u keep aside the facts which has clearly been stated by the Prophet (a.s)

bismillah...go ahead....whos stopping u from disclosing knowledge..

What methodology do you use to accept or reject our hadith?

i hav just given that sentence with a big "IF"....."if" u dint read that...its the way to discuss...infact i hav already given reasons to reject that hadith....infact if i start giving out hadith from the same books the br has reffered to...u will reject them as well..just because it does not fit ure faith...or u will give some logical reason...or if the hadith is totally out of context then u may use quran as well..

infact i would invite u to debate me not to prove anything...but to share knowledge...and if for example, i dont hav an answer to a question i will go to a scholar and ask him the same thing hoping to find a logical answer...and if it happens with u...i advice u to do the same....but i hav noticed that my questions hav not been replied and ignored to the most...well i hav not adressed them over and over again hoping that the person on the other end is doing some research on it...but the way i see the posts..thats not the fact....

i would also like everybody on this forum to treat each other with respect...see, no one will leave ones aqeedah by chatting on the internet...but the positive about such forums is that we all can mingle and discuss and learn from each other...and research on the things we dont knw....the best thing about these forums is that we can atleast try to clarify our aqeedah to the other...i am pointing out about the varios myths ppl have about the shia...which are surly untrue....one of them have been discussed (recently about Quran and Imam Ali (a.s))...insallah more facts will be cleared in future...

Edited by asda - 12 September 2008 at 3:35pm

minuteman

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Points: 1642

Posted: 14 September 2008 at 12:44am

There is a short question to asda. Is Hazrat Hussain a martyr (Shaheed)? He was killed ruthlessly in Karbala. Please tell. Thanks.

seekshidayath View Drop Down

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Female Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
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Points: 3357

Posted: 14 September 2008 at 2:00am

see, no one will leave ones aqeedah by chatting on the internet...

asda, if Allah wills, you may get your aqeedah changed. We pray for it.

Here's a very intresting thing. You know, Ali RA , out of love and respect for his three brethen caliphs , named three of his sons after them. He also gave his eldest daughter Umm Kulthoom in marriage to `Umar Ibn khatab. In addition, we se that `Abdullah bin la'hr bin Abi Taalib ,' Ali's nephew) named one of his sons Abu Bakr, and the other one Mu'aawiyah. Mu'aawiyah bin `Abdullah named his son after Yazeed bin Mu'aawiyah bin Abu Sufyaan, who was considered to be of good repute, according to the testimony of Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiyyah bin `Ali bin Abu Taalib.

Is it not intresting !!!!!

I may not answer all your questions. Frankly speaking, i did not read your posts with much concentration. Can you kindly, post one question in each post. I shall try my best to answer it {until this thread gets closed

}

I did not want to answer you, as i wished to ignore. But again you may misconcept that we did not answer you , as we did not have answers with us.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."

asda

Senior Member

Joined: 02 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 164

Posted: 14 September 2008 at 4:42am

asda, if Allah wills, you may get your aqeedah changed. We pray for it.

if thats the case.....inshallah u might accept the path of Ahlel Bayt(a.s) for they know the Prophet (a.s) more then the others..

how can keeping very common names among the people be a sign of love for a sepecific person?? ure daleel astonishes me...

He also gave his eldest daughter Umm Kulthoom in marriage to `Umar Ibn khatab..

the event never took place bro...

Is it not intresting !!!!!

nope!!

while u have raised ure case by small events...
I invite u to the school of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) and fight with Imam Ali (a.s) in the Battle of Siffin and the battle of Jamal....
I invite u to stand beside the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) on their claims of fidak.
i Invite u to be with the ones who wanted the prophet (a.s) to write his will when he wanted pen and paper..
(thats just the begining)
i invite u to stay away from those who had hurt Fatima (a.s), the beloved doughter of the prophet (a.s)..
i invite u to stay away from those who did not let Prophet Muhammad (a.s) write his will...
i invite u to stay away from those who went against the orders of the Prophet Muhammad (a.s) and brought back Marwan bin Hakam's family back when the Prophet (a.s) had exiled them.....
i invite u stay away from the killers of Ammar bin Yaasir
i invite u to stay Away from the killers of Imam Hussain (a.s)..
(and thats just a begining as well i can go on and on)

inshallah...if u do research on the topics being discussed, inshallah u will know that The school of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) is the only right path....

will u stop threatning me of closing this thread...i hav already told u that its not me going out of the topic....u kwn...i dint write a very looooong reply...but still u dint read it...well well....

I did not want to answer you, as i wished to ignore. But again you may misconcept that we did not answer you , as we did not have answers with us.

y dont u understand that these debates are way much above than winning and loosing...u r still scratching ure head on that...i pity u bro....

ok as u say...lets go one by one..now ure one Question:

y dint h.Fatima (a.s) know that she had no inheiritence??? infact it is not important for Abu Bakr to know about the fact that Prophets (a.s) dint leave any inheiritence...are u trying to tell me that the Prophet (a.s) dint do his job well??

asda

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Joined: 02 September 2008
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Points: 164

Posted: 14 September 2008 at 1:30pm

There is a short question to asda. Is Hazrat Hussain a martyr (Shaheed)? He was killed ruthlessly in Karbala. Please tell. Thanks.

y do u need an answer to a very basic question....who can deny the reality???

minuteman

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