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Abrogation?
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minuteman View Drop Down
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Points: 1642 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2008 at 11:03pm
 
 Ron, since you do not beleive in God and also in any revealed book, it is difficult to convince you. Still we try. Now I am taking up your argument about various stages in Heavens (paradise). Even though it has already been explained to you.
 
 In our book, The Quran, there is mention of reward (Ajr). Also there is mention of great reward (Ajr an Azeem). So we believe that there are stages and higher stages of achievements in the hereafter.
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

So punishing someone for a bad-deed, and forgiving them after they have done thier time is 'schizophrenia'? Talk about a foolish answer.

Forgiving them after they've done their time is an empty gesture.  True forgiveness would happen before they were punished.  True forgiveness would not require them to do time at all.

The gates of forgiveness are open 24hrs a day, for as long as you live. No matter how big the crime. So yes, there is a chance at forgiveness before punishment is rendered out by Allah. If a person does not want to go to hell, they just have to ask for forgiveness and do good on earth. Sounds fair to me.

 

As for your idea of 'True Forgiveness' i.e. you're not required to do time at all. . . very nice, theoratically. But unjust and unfair.

 

Should a man, who got away with rape, murder, theft on this earth get away with all his crimes, and be pardoned in the hereafter? On the same platform, as one man who stayed away from rape, theft, and murder - because it was the right thing to do? I dont know, you tell me. What about the victim? Doesnt the victim want justice?

 

We cannot presume how, and why and if Allah will forgive anyone. . . It is up to Him, and He shall deal with everyone justly and accordingly. That is a Muslim's belief. But i guess since you are not one, we cannot expect you to understand that.

 

 

Quote
Our prison system is run by our government's "Corrections Division", the theory being that we hope to correct the criminal's behaviour so that he will return to society as a law-abiding citizen.  (Ha!  That's the theory, anyway.)

 

What about those that are in life imprisonment? Or those on the death-penalty. . . they are never returning to society, so whats the point in punishing them then? Because it is only fair that they get punished for doing a wrong. . .

Quote The heaven/hell thing, by contrast, is supposed to be a final judgement.  There can be no pretense of correcting behaviour, no chance to return to society and no opportunity to make amends for misdeeds.  After you're dead, you've either earned your heavenly reward or not, and a short stay in hell will not change anything.  If you're deserving of heaven afterward, you were deserving of it before.

The heaven/hell thing deals with 'rewarding behaviour' and 'earning the result of what we have reaped'. And it also helps correct the behaviour of those on earth, because they know they will be held accountable for every action. So it has a multi-pronged effect.

 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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I was having a peek through this thread and came across this on your post Chrysalis, and it made me laugh.
 
"Since one is explaining to a non-muslim, I dont think going into detailed explanations like 'Hanafi Madhab' etc helps much. Its like, explaining astro-physics to a Marketing student."  LOL
 
I wonder what Jesus or Muhammad would really think of all of this. Not only in Islam - all of them. Do we all need PhDs in 'astro physics' to get to Heaven ? ;-) 
 
Please - I am not in any way meaning to sound disrespectful.  But you are right. I'd need umpteen degrees in a variety of disciplines it seems, fore I could even begin to understand. However........     am willing to try and learn.
 
 Could WIMPs be virtual in nature ? lol
 
If virtual particles can melt away a black hole (ala Stephen Hawking), couldn't they also have momentary mass?
 
Is Heaven really a place on earth (ala  Belinda Carlisle). ?
 

God bless you all folks :-)
 
 
 
 
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2008 at 5:45pm

Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

Should a man, who got away with rape, murder, theft on this earth get away with all his crimes, and be pardoned in the hereafter?

If he is truly repentant, yes. That's what forgiveness is all about.

Quote What about the victim? Doesnt the victim want justice?

The victim is not helped by punishing the perpetrator.  I think you're confusing justice with vengeance.  If the victim wants vengeance, then in my opinion he/she is little better than the perpetrator.

Quote What about those that are in life imprisonment? Or those on the death-penalty. . . they are never returning to society, so whats the point in punishing them then?

The point is that some people are deemed to be beyond hope of rehabilitation.  At least if we keep them locked up they can't hurt anyone else.  Same goes for the death penalty, although I'm not in favour of it.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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minuteman View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Gulliver Gulliver wrote:

I was having a peek through this thread and came across this on your post Chrysalis, and it made me laugh.
 
"Since one is explaining to a non-muslim, I dont think going into detailed explanations like 'Hanafi Madhab' etc helps much. Its like, explaining astro-physics to a Marketing student."  LOL
 
I wonder what Jesus or Muhammad would really think of all of this. Not only in Islam - all of them. Do we all need PhDs in 'astro physics' to get to Heaven ? ;-) 
 
Please - I am not in any way meaning to sound disrespectful.  But you are right. I'd need umpteen degrees in a variety of disciplines it seems, fore I could even begin to understand. However........     am willing to try and learn.
 
 Could WIMPs be virtual in nature ? lol
 
If virtual particles can melt away a black hole (ala Stephen Hawking), couldn't they also have momentary mass?
 
Is Heaven really a place on earth (ala  Belinda Carlisle). ?
 

God bless you all folks :-)
  
 
 What Chrysalis was saying that Ron is an Atheist. He/she does not believe that there is a god. In such a case it would be futile to wander into deeper lanes of any religion. I feel Chrys was right.
 
 When a person does not believe in God and does not find fitness with any faith then it useless to discuss whether the grand is going to hell or heavens.
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Hello Minuteman
 
I haven't got a clue who Ron Webb is. It was just when reading through the post - that little 'gem' in there that lightened the whole experience. It's way too intellectual for me. I'll leave it to those who know what they are talking about to discuss and argue these matters.
 
I wasn't laughing at any person here, or what they were claiming one way or another. It was just that comment about the astro physics and the marketing student. It was like trying to read and understand in a foreign language - then someone says something you understand completely, and your tired brain just knows it's time to take a break.
 
You'll get used to my silly Irishness in time :-)
 
God bless
 


Edited by Gulliver - 19 September 2008 at 8:19am
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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I just pick up little pieces here and there. A little knowledge can be dangerous, I know.  I cannot argue anything and would not wish to. I have known periods of near disbelief myself, and been what might be termed a 'disbeliever'. Perhaps I still am. A 'heretic' in the eyes of some I am sure.
 
I was wondering about the hierarchies in Heaven.
 
I found this translation of the Qu'ran and it's interesting. I have only just started, but this part came to me and made me wonder.
 
The bible says, "the first shall be last and the last first."  I wonder about these words. That as the 'higher' man evolves - grows spiritually - he/she, though 'first,' come 'last,' in that their desire to 'serve' grows as they progress to that higher 'first' level.  
 
"It is in giving that we receive".
 
"I did not come to  be served, but to serve.........  "
 
It's another of those paradoxes that seem so common to all of it.
 
 
Just thoughts folks.
 
From this translation of Qu'ran and introduction:
 

Connection between the two lives.

The life after death, according to the Holy Qur�an, opens out a wide vista of

progress before man, a new world of advancement before which the progress of this

life sinks into insignificance: �And certainly the Hereafter is greater in degrees and

greater in excellence� (17:21). The connection between the two lives, the life on

this earth and the life after death, is established in the clearest words. Heaven and

hell are not places of enjoyment and torture to be met with only after death; they

are realities even here. The Hereafter is not a mystery beyond the grave; it begins in

this very life. For the good, the heavenly life, and for the wicked, a life in hell,

begins even here:

�And for him who fears to stand before his Lord are two Gardens�

(55:46).

�O soul that art at rest, return to thy Lord, well-pleased (with Him), wellpleasing

(Him), so enter among My servants, and enter My Garden�

(89:27�0).

�It is the Fire kindled by Allah, which rises above the hearts�

(104:6, 7).

�And whoever is blind in this (life), he will be blind in the Hereafter�

(17:72).  P.19.
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Friendship View Drop Down
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Points: 884 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2008 at 1:48pm
Assalamu alaikum.
 
We must distinguish betwen abrogation and simplicity or ease for mankind to live comfortably within a certain limit and survive. I do not think that Allah abrogated what He said in Genesis 1-32, about His Pleasure and seing Good on His creations. If the People of the Book agreed to this, then there cannot be abrogation on the organic creation. Muhammad did not abrogate the Old Testament neither the  precepts of the 10 Commandments.  He lived by them and executed the punishments prescribed therein to those People of the Book who committed the offence. In reality there is no special Law or Commandment from Allah to Muhammad other than the MERCY of ALLAH. The Law Muhammad completed was the Mercy of Allah. The world can live in peace by strictly applying the LAW in the Old Testament. Let us read the Scriptures and their accepted commentaries and stop deceiving others. The Qur 'an is for all to read and not only a certain class of people.
Frindship.  
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