Seal of prophet-KhatamanNabiyyeenand othe

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

H3OO

Senior Member

Joined: 11 July 2008
Location: Switzerland
Status: Offline
Points: 215

Posted: 03 October 2008 at 8:01am

I dont understand why people are getting so hostile or offensive. It is not like im saying that God couldnt save his men or he lost [nauzubillah]

The difference between ur and my opinion(which is opinion of many others as well and not only mine) is that u are saying that God saved or made those miracles happen but he had to compromise his laws, his rules, had to go against our logic

whereas

im saying that God saved and made those miracles happen but without compromising his laws, his rules, whatever he did was in accordance with the logical patterns of this world (with proves in the light of quran and reasoning) and this reflects his greator mastery as compared to the opinions of urs.

Edited by H3OO - 03 October 2008 at 8:06am

minuteman

Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 25 March 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1642

Posted: 03 October 2008 at 9:37am

I was given a challenge by mansoor Ali (?) which I failed to meet because I may have missed to read his post properly. Here is that challenge:

Here is my challenge to minuteman:

1.Quote any single authentic mufassir which support your claim that there is prophet after Muhammad.

Now i come to your last question which is about life and death of Jesus Christ.

If you read above quoted mufassir including Ibn Kathir these mufassir have a unique faith regarding this matter.

Below you will find a link that has a mini book that proves that Prophet Issa (latinized to Jesus) (peace be upon him) did not die according to Qur'an and that he will return.

http://invitationtotruth.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/did-prophet-issa-die/

1. I cannot quote any Mufassir but I can quote an important Hadith in which the prophet himself said about his son Ibraheem (who died). He said. If he had lived he would have surely been a siddique prophet. (the exact words I have I will have to check up)

2. Hazrat Aisha r.a. said, "O, people, Say that he (prophet) is Khatam an Nabiyyeen. And do not say there is no prophet after him"

3. Every well known scholar agreed that our prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. is the last prophet in the sense that no law bearing prophet will come after him to replace his law. In that sense, they believed that he is the last law bearing prophet. (Shah Waliullah Dehlavi included in those scholars and also Shaikh Akbar Moheyuddin Undlusi also, and Imam Mulla Ali Qari Hanafi).

4. It is agreed that Hazrat Muhammad is the last law bearing prophet ( Shariyat walla Nabi).

5. There is a Hadith too which goes like this:

The prophet s.a.w.s. said " If Musa and Isa were living today, they would have no excuse except to follow in my footsteps." Meaning they would have to follow my Shariyat.

(Tafseer ibne Katheer Urdu vol 1, p85, )

(Tafseer ibne katheer on footnote of Tafseer fatah al Bayan.)

( Al Yawaqeet wa Al Jawaher by Imam Abdul Wahhab al Sh'irani vol 2 page 20)

Later I would check up the names of all those who gave opinion that now only law bearing prophet is forbidden.

Otherwise i am with you that our prophet is the Sartaj ul Anbiya.

Now I come to another important figure of India who wrote a book about Khatam an nabiyeen. he discussed this subject. He said "People think Khatam an Nabiyeen means last prophet. That is no use, no good word. It would be like a fat prophet, a tall prophet. The word Khatam is used in the verse as a praise for the Rasool Allah. There is no praise in being the last one."

" Our prophet had personal prophethood. All other prophets had relative prophethood (relative to him and due to his blessings)".... It was long discussion... He said that "even if any prophet appears now, it will not harm the status of our prophet being Khatam an Nabiyeen. He will still remain Khatam an Nabiyeen."

Now in the end, I remember that Imam of Hadith, Imam Tirmidhi said, " People say Muhammad is the last prophet... That is the idea of the foolish (Jahil) people... That is not a good meaning of the khatam an nabiyeen...."

Please do not be upset with what I have written above. It is all true and you have to understand what it means. Or prove that it is all wrong (false). but that will not be any use to any one.

Scholarly People had written that. I did not do it. I only passed by it.

Edited by minuteman - 03 October 2008 at 9:46am

Whisper

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752

Posted: 03 October 2008 at 9:45am

Brother Whisper if u have so much trouble understanding logic then why dont u just take a break from this thread and just go somewhere else and let me and others have constructive discussions

Yes! Every Psychopath thinks, in fact, believes that people have all the trouble with understanding and barks his opinions at them. What the eff you know about me.

You do think that you are the ONE AND THE ONLY in this world who knows and understands? Every single psycopath thinks EXACTLY that.

Just one question: teray rab nay Physics ch Masters kar lita aye ke halay siraf B.Sc naal ee kum chalayee ja reha aye.

Edited by Whisper - 03 October 2008 at 9:54am

Whisper

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752

Posted: 03 October 2008 at 10:01am

I was given a challenge by mansoor Ali (?) which I failed to meet because I may have missed to read his post properly. Here is that challenge:

Meri jaan Minuteman yaar just tell us one thing. Do you believe that Mirza of Qadiyaan was a prophet or not?

I like you very much. You are okay. Not at all like this chap who is a deeply disturbed Psychopath and who would have been tested and institutionalised in the UK. My son is assigned that function in Glasgow. I am just a psychologist, he is a full

Psychiatrist.

We do understans that he must have been beaten up badly not really for being an Ahmedi but actually for his Psycopathic behaviour and trying to prove all besides him as some fools!

We will be friends as we have always been, siraf mujh ko yeh bata do keh do you take Mirza as a prophet?

You are a respectable man, we all respect you. You have never behaved as a socio or psychopath in our midst.

Edited by Whisper - 03 October 2008 at 10:06am

seekshidayath View Drop Down

Senior Member

Female Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357

Posted: 03 October 2008 at 7:45pm

H3OO wrote:

I read quran but dont read these scholars interpretation. Quran is not written by these scholars.

Then how do you understand ? Whom do you read ?

Well,also just let me know, if you also go thru hadith while studying ayahs of Qur'an ?

When Qur'an is not written by these scholars, then you must also be knowing that it's not written by any PROPHET too. So why do you need a Prophet to explain you the interpretation ? {as you said that}

A prophet will clarify, if all those interpretations of Qur'an are correct or wrong. Where is it written ? Prove it ?
some things are of a common sense. Why do we needed to be spoon feeded reagarding everything.

Ok, Then, why do you need a Prophet to explain you those verses, Man!

We know how much different interpretations of Quran exists and we dont know who is right or wrong, whose interpretation to follow. There are so many misconceptions regarding real meaning of different versus of quran. some says onething and some says says something else, only allah can clarify what the real interpretation is and that is only possible through a prophet.

Who said so ? I did not happen to read any such, in the revelation of Qur'an . Did Allah swt say anywhere, that this is the Qur'an revealed over Prophet Muhammad, and now, i shall be sending you an other Prophet to explain you {Nauzbillah}.

U did not prove me, as where is it written anywhere in Qur'an, that we are to wait for a prophet to understand the real meaning of the ayahs ?

An other pretendance ! Don't try to fool the readers. If you are sincere in your study, finish it and then come to discussions
I guess it is me who should ask u this question. U havent studied any of their books and all u are pasting is from anti-ahmedi websites

Hey Mr. don't ignore my lines of an other post, where i said, that i do have your books in urdu/punjabi, and all readers do not understand these lang. Neither did u let me know if you understand these lang, so that i get them scanned. I had to refer these sites for the verses, as these books of Qadiyanis, are not translated in english. B.cos they know, once they are translated, they will leave no trace of theirs.

Secondly, none of the verse i quoted is wrong. Go back, turn the pages and check well.

which i have proved to be false but u ignored it and u still dont understand it.

No, i did not ignore. Post them again

All the allegations or false rumors about ahmedis, u have mentioned so far are what u've heard from here or there or from such websites without any proofs from ahmedis books. Plz read there books and stop getting mislead.

I swear by Allah ! that none of the beliefs i posted of these ahmedis are wrong. If the readers remember, i said, i had been dealing with Qadiyanis. ANd they do believe this. Just pray, insha Allah, very soon, a qadiyani, who shall be back a muslim, shall join us here. But again i guess, you may say, he must be fake one, or wrong one, i created. But remember, i fear Allah swt. Just pray, that he gets into hidayah soon.

or U are not here to seek the true hidayath.

Now, again, you are getting personal. That was not part of discussion, as why am here ? Look man, Allah swt is the bestower of true hidayah. Its not that He bestows, hidayah only thru Islamicity. Perhaps, it must be so in your fake and forged books you read. Why am here --- Allah swt, My Creator, knows me well. You are none to check me.

rophet {Nauzbillah} and when you say muhammadur rasool Allah, you shud intend it to be Mirza.
Ist im not an ahmedi as u imply, second i mentioned it clearly that they might say that their prophet is second incarnation of Hazrat Isa[as] and also gave a reference and am sure there will be more and i'll try to find it and paste here.

Read your line, you shall try to find it and paste it - But from ? Is it from Ahmedi site ? Go and ask any qadiyani {just tell him that even you are a qadiyani, only then shall he answer you. Ask him, why do they consider Mirza as second incarnation of Prophet Muhammad. Don't ask him if they consider him second incarnation, just ask why do they consider. You shall get that answer. Am sure, you shall not share that here.

and how do u say that they pretend Mirza. When they say muhammadur rasool Allah, then it means what it is (that is what they are saying and not what u think they pretend). show me anywhere they said mirza instead of muhammed in Kalma.

IT is the part of there belief

or Are u saying u know what is in there hearts.

Am a humble, slave of Allah - The Creator. How will i know like you,whats up in hearts. As i said, its the part of the belief of you Ahmedis.

so dont spread lies. and fear Allah.

Now, answer me a question ? When you claim that you are n't an ahmedi, why do you not embrace it ?

{Dear readers, he;s just trying to fool us, by not being open . I see clear signs of hypocrisy in him}

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."

Whisper

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752

Posted: 04 October 2008 at 12:39am

Spanish mein'kehtay hai'n joder.

Yaar meray dost, meray bhai Allah Kareem tumhei'n umer e daraz ata farmaye. Yaar kiss one hundred twenty three degree ke Psychopath + Sociopath ke saat maghaz kharaab kar rehe ho?

(My brother, my friend of some years, may Allah grant you long life. You are just wasting your energy with a 123 degree sociopath + psychopath)

My brother he has been beaten up, not for his Ahmediship but for his foul and filthy psychopathic behaviour. He has stood up with this Jeehaad to end presumed hatreds against his community and also to tire out all the Muslims, just out of vengence.

You have known me here for ages. Have I ever been wrong about with my intuition?

Please don't waste your time with him. He gets a buzz out of running Muslims up and down. He is here with the mission to mentally destroy anyone who does not take Mirza as a Nabi.

Period.

Edited by Whisper - 04 October 2008 at 12:44am

Whisper

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752

Posted: 04 October 2008 at 1:10am

Plz go away. Goodbye and so stop threatening
no one is forcing u to read

What a grand illusion! Don't flatter yourself. You mean I need to threaten you? Too'n tay do nafla'n di vi maar naee'n (you are not worth even just two nafaal) Kutiaa'n noon peli to baar rakhday layee saday mazaray kafi nay (my tenants keep dogs away from my farms!)

Where are you lost? I am here just for my friends Seekshidayat and my Paa jee the Sign*Reader. Just a story for you before you run into any of these Raos, other Ranghars or some Niazi somewhere.

A few years, in fact almost two decades ago, I got a call from an Okara Rana. A Rao sahib (I would not mention his name, he is a household name in Pakistan, he is an ex-general plus also otherwise well known) had got hold of their boy and he was in real trouble. The Okara Rana I am talking about was then a member of Parliament, a regular MNA complete with an Intercooler Pajero and all that.

The more important thing; he was an uncle to an old boyhood friend of mine.

I picked up Soofi Razzaq, my Khaleefa e Majaz (my Deputy who is authorised to accept allegiance on our behalf) from not very far from Deepalpur and rushed to the general's village.

And you know the Raos are terribly hospitable. That day one of his nephews had shot a very very tasty dear. We lunched on venison and had some of the best lassi you could find but only in Punjaub. Though I find the Iranian Dookh a wee better!

I asked the general about the boy when we were having our kahwa (a special after meals tea) He briefed me that the lad had been gustaakh (insolent) about his Morshed and they had kept him in hole dug up in the worst snake land of his holdings.

The general said: "we will skin him and send his his gut to a small factory in Gujranwala who will convert it into gut suitable for making a tennis raquet"

I requested the general and got him around to handing over the lad to me. He gave in. We picked him up and dropped hin at his village near Okara.

He had not been half as insolent about that old man as you have been. Pobre H whatever, zara ehtiate naal, kidray eh na hovay ke kissay Rao, Ranay ya Niazi noo'n pata chal jai teri harkato'n ka tay menoo'n ganday raquet naal tennis khdni pe jai

(H whatever, be just a bit careful. I won't wish any Rao, Rana or some Niazi to find out about your behaviour as I may have to play tennis with some absolutely filthy raquet)

Do you understand? This world is full of many absolutely and divinely crazy people and you are just naked que your rab has merely done his B.Sc in Physics. My RAB is absolutely and TOTALY OMNIPOTENT, OMNIPRESENT.

Edited by Whisper - 04 October 2008 at 1:23am

Mansoor_ali View Drop Down

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 September 2008
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 584

Posted: 04 October 2008 at 1:23am

minuteman wrote:

1. I cannot quote any Mufassir but I can quote an important Hadith in which the prophet himself said about his son Ibraheem (who died). He said. If he had lived he would have surely been a siddique prophet. (the exact words I have I will have to check up)

Response to minuteman

Quote the complete Hadith.Here is complete Hadith and i also doubt that your translation of Hadith is wrong.Well here is Hadith:

Sahih Bukhari,Volume 8, Book 73, Number 214:

Narrated Isma'il:

I asked Abi Aufa, "Did you see Ibrahim, the son of the Prophet ?" He said, "Yes, but he died in his early childhood. Had there been a Prophet after Muhammad then his son would have lived, but there is no Prophet after him."(Source)

minuteman wrote:

2. Hazrat Aisha r.a. said, "O, people, Say that he (prophet) is Khatam an Nabiyyeen. And do not say there is no prophet after him"

Here are some big problems with this Hadith:

1.) In the first place it is an audacity to quote the words of Aisha for contradicting the explicit command of the Holy Prophet.

2.) Moreover the very words attributed to Aisha are not authentic.No authoritative work on Hadith contains this observation of Aisha nor any notable compiler of traditions has recorded or referred to it. This tradition is derived from a commentary entitled Durr-i-Manthur and a compilation of Hadith known as Takmilah Majma-ul-Bihar.But its source and credentials are unknown.It is the highest of audacity to put forward a statement of a lady companion in order to contradict the explicit observations of the Holy Prophet which the eminent traditionists have transmitted on the most authentic chains of transmission.(Check it out for source footnote 4)

minuteman wrote:

3. Every well known scholar agreed that our prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. is the last prophet in the sense that no law bearing prophet will come after him to replace his law. In that sense, they believed that he is the last law bearing prophet. (Shah Waliullah Dehlavi included in those scholars and also Shaikh Akbar Moheyuddin Undlusi also, and Imam Mulla Ali Qari Hanafi).

Just because, someone might have said "I think no law-bearing prophet will come", should not be taken to mean that he has said "I believe new non-lawbearing prophets will come"!

Kindly, read the following clear quotes to gain an accurate understanding of
1.) Hazrat Waliullah(R)'s opinion:

"Muhammad(SAW) is not the father of any man among you, rather he is the Messenger of Allah and he is the seal on prophets,meaning after him there shall be no prophet."(Fathur-Rahman,Tafseer on Ayah 33.40)

"I declare that, after the death of the holy prophet(SAW), prophethood has ended." (Hujjatullah-ul-Balegah,Vol. 2, P. 506)

"Know that before the great Dajjal, many dajjals will appear.This will be common in every dajjal that, using the name of Allah, they will give invitation to Allah. Among these impostors, there will be those dajjals who will claim prophethood." (Tafhamate elahiya, Vol. 2, P. 19)

2.) Shaikh Akbar Moheyuddin Undlusi

I didnot find his quotation any where on net.Can you give me the reference alongwith link?

3.) Mulla Ali Qari (died A.H. 1016)

Mulla Ali Qari in his commentary Fiqh Akbar, writes: "To lay a claim to Prophethood after the ministry of our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is a sheer infidelity by the consensus of Ummah." (Fiqh Akbar,p. 202)

minuteman wrote:

4. It is agreed that Hazrat Muhammad is the last law bearing prophet ( Shariyat walla Nabi).

Yes it is agreed that he is also the last Prophet full stop.

minuteman wrote:

5. There is a Hadith too which goes like this:

The prophet s.a.w.s. said " If Musa and Isa were living today, they would have no excuse except to follow in my footsteps." Meaning they would have to follow my Shariyat.
(Tafseer ibne Katheer Urdu vol 1, p85, )

(Tafseer ibne katheer on footnote of Tafseer fatah al Bayan.)

( Al Yawaqeet wa Al Jawaher by Imam Abdul Wahhab al Sh'irani vol 2 page 20)

Yes i agree if Musa and Isa were living today,they would follow Shariyat of last Prophet.But the question is how?

They shall neither receive any Divine revelation nor will issue new injunctions,they shall act as a followers of Muhammad.(Shaikh Ismail Haqqi,Ruh-ul-Bayan,Surah 33:40)(Allama Taftazani,Shara Aqaid-i-Nasafi)(Allama Alusi,Tafsir Ruh-al-Maani)

That is a meaning of Ibn Katheer,Imam Abdul Wahhab al Shirani.

minuteman wrote:

Later I would check up the names of all those who gave opinion that now only law bearing prophet is forbidden.

Otherwise i am with you that our prophet is the Sartaj ul Anbiya.

Context of Surah 33:40 is everything.You must give correct meanings to the word 'Khatam-an-Nabiteen' which obviously also depends upon the context of Surah.

Here is scholarly response by Maulana Maududi on this subject:

The Verdict of the Text of the Qur'an

A group who has raised the heresy of a new prophethood in modern times explains the meaning of the idea of the "Finality of Prophethood" as the 'Stamp of Prophethood' thereby implying that all prophets who would succeed Muhammad (PBUH) will bear his stamp and will attain to prophethood by his seal alone. No one, in other words, who does not bear the seal of Muhammad (PBUH) will attain the status of Prophethood. But the context in which the term

"the last in the line of Prophets"

has been revealed in the Holy Qur'an leaves no scope for such speculation. If indeed the term

"last in the line of Prophets"

does bear the meaning intended by this group, then this term is surely out of place in the context in which it has been revealed. Furthermore, when the term is charged with this meaning it distorts the whole purpose of the revealed verse.

In this verse God refutes the charge and dispels doubts created by the mischievous people about the marriage of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) with Zainab (may Allah be pleased with her), the divorced wife of the Prophet's adopted son, Zaid. Does it stand to reason to make a sudden interpolation in this context of the point that Muhammad (PBUH) was the 'seal of Prophets' and that Allah had delegated to him the authority of attesting the bonafides of succeeding prophets ?

This interpretation bears no connection with the context-not the least even and is contrary to the purpose of Divine argument against the heretics. If this interpretation were true the non- believers might well have argued: "There is no hurry in doing away with this custom now. You might safely leave this task for your successor prophets who will bear your stamp."

According to a second interpretation of the idea of the finality of Prophethood advanced by this group it is said that the term

"Last in the line of Prophets"

means the "exalted Prophet." They further explain that the line of Apostles will continue, though the excellence of Prophethood has been culminated in the person of Muhammad (PBUH).

This interpretation is no less defective and harmful than the other one. It hardly bears any relation to the context and, in fact, conveys a contradictory sense of the verse. Taking this thread of argument the infidels and hypocrites would have plausibly pointed out, "Sir, there will be other prophets after you, howsoever inferior in status compared to you, to fulfil the Divine mission, why must you take it upon yourself to remove this custom also?"(Source)

So you can see context is very important.

minuteman wrote:

Now in the end, I remember that Imam of Hadith, Imam Tirmidhi said, " People say Muhammad is the last prophet... That is the idea of the foolish (Jahil) people... That is not a good meaning of the khatam an nabiyeen...."

Give me the reference for this citation from Tirmidhi. As a matter of fact, a hadith from Imam Tirmidhi makes it clear that there would be no Prophet after Muhammad (peace be upon him):

The Prophet of Allah (Peace be upon him) affirmed: "The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me." (Sunan Al Tirmidhi, Kitab: ur-Rouya Bab: Zahab-un- Nubuwwa, Hadith No.2198)

minuteman wrote:

Please do not be upset with what I have written above. It is all true and you have to understand what it means. Or prove that it is all wrong (false). but that will not be any use to any one.

Scholarly People had written that. I did not do it. I only passed by it.

Yes i am upset about you because your understanding of 'Khatam-an-Nabiteen' is not accurate in the light of Quran,Hadiths.

Yes i am upset about your misrepresentation of the position of Muslim scholars and personalities.

Yes i am upset about your quoted unauthentic ahadeeth.

May Allah guide you.