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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2008 at 5:42am
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

There was a fatwah from Khomeini that allowed thighing of young girls still weaning.

Has that fatwah been canceled?  Can you cancel fatwahs?
 
First, such a thing does not exist in Islam.
 
Second, there is no proof that Khomeini ever issued such a fatwa.
It is one of those stories that's statrs and gets passed around but no-one ever shows any proof that it happened. Please post irrefutable proof here that such a thing occurred.
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 31 October 2008 at 5:43am
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Points: 621 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2008 at 6:37am
Hi BMZ. I did not say it was true. It was the first thing I saw online about Muhammad and my friend was not able to argue for or against it. It annoyed him very much. He has a good faith, so I took him online to try and see what else, from more reliable sources may have been written about this.
 
I have to admit I do have a problem with this story myself.
 
It is clear these days that having sex with children - and nine year olds playing with dolls are children - that is has serious effects on their pyscho sexual development.

If Muhammad were a 'prophet' - he should have had some indication of this and not taken a child as his bride. It does sound a tad perverse to say the least, and the arguments that it was a cultural thing don't ring true.
 
He should have know better. Why does a 50 odd year old man choose a child as a bride ?
 
Would you let a 50 odd year old man do that to your 9 year old child ? I'd shoot him.
 
 
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Points: 621 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2008 at 6:42am
I have personal experience of this kind of 'relationship' and know many others who have had similar - and they were destroyed by it - many don't survive the experience/s.  So I have to admit - I am DEEPLY prejudiced on this issue, and really don't know that I can ever accept any supposed 'valid' 'arguments' on this particular matter.  This one, and the beheading of the Jews are the two real 'issues' I have with Muhammad. I will try and keep trying to understand the reality behind both.
 
K
 
PS Hello Shasta.  Hope I didn't come across as rude the other day. It wasn't intended that way at all.  It's religion itself - generally that sets me off somet times - not people here.


Edited by Gulliver - 31 October 2008 at 6:44am
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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"By the way, just for everyone's information, the word Sword cannot be found in Qur'aan. "
 
According to the esteemed scholarly translation:
 
 
 
54:29 But they called to their companion, and he took a sword in hand, and hamstrung (her).
  Fanadaw sahibahum fataAAatafaAAaqara
 

سورة القمر

 

?



Edited by Gulliver - 31 October 2008 at 7:02am
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2008 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Second, there is no proof that Khomeini ever issued such a fatwa.
It is one of those stories that's statrs and gets passed around but no-one ever shows any proof that it happened. Please post irrefutable proof here that such a thing occurred. 
 
The allegation is based on a book that Khomeini wrote titled "Tahrir al Wasilah", which supposedly contains all sorts of hideous stuff.  There's a photograph of the book, a sampling of some of the more perverted statements, and a downloadable file of the book's contents, here: http://ethnikoi.org/iran.html .  (And by the way, I scanned it for viruses -- it's clean.)  It's in Arabic, of course, so I can't tell you what it says.  Maybe someone can volunteer to take a look at it.


Edited by Ron Webb - 31 October 2008 at 6:00pm
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Angel View Drop Down
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Points: 6641 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2008 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Originally posted by Gulliver Gulliver wrote:

I am only doing what I have seen, see you do Shasta. I follow your lead.
It's how you 'teach'.
 
 
All I see you at this last week, is hole picking the OT and NT to 'prove' your notion that God and Jesus may, or may not be the same 'cause of 'their' 'attitudes' to violence. It NEVER occurs to you people that what you say at times can be as offensive to others as your own claims on what others may or may not believe.  I did not set out to see 'what a bad boy Muhammad' was, is. Like I said, I am following your lead. You need to review your teaching strategies.
 
I do want to learn. But I wish to learn from people who know their subject, and to tell the truth Shasta, the more I once again try and get back to 'religion' - the more I am becoming convinced it's the blind leading the blind.
 
I do try and read the Qu'ran, and like the Bible, it is not all plain sailing without history and context. When I met my Muslim friend and saw how his faith life impacted his entire life, I was interested to learn more. I did look online, and the very first thing I saw about Muhammad was the claim he was a paedophile. I asked my friend about this. His response, "why do people always have to look at the bad bits !" He knew me by that stage and knew it was not me doing that - it's what others did. So I went online with him and we did look at various claims against his religion that he did not necessarily have the answers to, at that time. I was ONLY concerned with looking at the good of his religion, to the truth of it, something that would enrich the already strong faith he had. He never quite got to trying to do the same for me. It was always, "I believe in and respect Jesus as a prophet," but could not quote anything Jesus was supposed to have actually said. I am not looking to see the 'bad' in anything - religion included, or Muhammad. I am just following the lead here. Tit for tat. I can play that game really well. I was raised in a society where that's what 'religion' seemed to be so much about - tit for tat - eye for an eye - bullet in the head for a bullet in the head. My knowledge of God is better than yours. I have the truth and you don't.
 
We all need to stand back and take a good look in the mirror it seems to me - and I include myself in that :-)
 
God bless
 
 
I will address only one point, which I have emboldened within your post, Gulliver.
 
You should know very well that a paedophile never stops at one and most paedophiles in the modern world are kept tagged and are kept in detention. There is no cure.
 
You should also look at a people's culture and history. No culture allowed a paedophile to continue with his activities.
 
Prophet was married to Khadija, his first wife when he was 25 and she was 40. He was 54 when Khadija passed away. After that he married widows, other women, young and old. 
 
Paedophiles DO NOT do that. You should thus see clearly that the accusation is false.
 
His companions and followers would have left him if he were a paedophile and his tribe would have finished him off. The 7th Century was more modern than the 1st Century. LOL
 
Cheers
BMZ 
 
I kinda agree with you BMZ. The thing is there is a difference between a paedopiles (and your right they don't stop at one girl/boy) and someone who is betrothed to a girl for marriage.
 
Will I don't agree with an older man marrying a child, it's just plainly wrong. But we all are judging from todays standards, yes we have advanced in certain areas and that's why we see it as wrong, everyone is guessing of what may have happened back then. The standards were very different.
 
Betrothing was very common, it may still happen today but its not something of the norm.
 
And anyway there are stories about Mary that she was a child when she was betrothed to Joseph but there is no hype about that.
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angel View Drop Down
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Points: 6641 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2008 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by Gulliver Gulliver wrote:

It is clear these days that having sex with children - and nine year olds playing with dolls are children - that is has serious effects on their pyscho sexual development.
 
of course you are right.
But what makes you think that Muhammed had sex with the 9 year old.
I've been here for a long time and this is one of few sujects that pop up from time to time. Muhammed may have married Aisha at 9 but marrying someone doesn't really indicate your having sex, even thou that is what happens when you get married, but anyway...

Quote If Muhammad were a 'prophet' - he should have had some indication of this and not taken a child as his bride. It does sound a tad perverse to say the least, and the arguments that it was a cultural thing don't ring true.
 
Don't judge by todays standards.  
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Quote Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:

Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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