Burden of Proof |
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Apollos
Senior Member Joined: 29 January 2009 Status: Offline Points: 426 |
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You (Apollos) wrote: �It is clear to anyone reading these that He was either identifying the underlying principal of the previous commandment or He was creating a new commandment that took the old one to a new level. Either way, He was not reversing a commandment but amplifying it.� Here, then, is a difference, and not one only of semantics. I don�t think that negating the thesis amplifies it. I think that negating the thesis creates the antithesis. As I read it, Moses stated the thesis and Jesus stated the antithesis (see above). (From Apollos): Servetis -
I understand that you see this as a thesis and antithesis scenario but unless you intentionally want to ignore the context of the sermon Jesus is giving, I don�t see why you should. In this sermon on the mount Jesus makes a transition from the Blessed are the meek, etc. to this part where He tells them: �Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled.� (The Greek word translated as �fulfill� means complete, perfect, finish, etc.). He then goes on to warn against relaxing (loosen, break, destroy) any of these commandments. After this intro He gives four examples of the Law that He clearly amplifies. Following the same pattern of �You have heard it said � but I tell .. �, Jesus says: You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist evil. But whoever shall strike you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. And to him desiring to sue you, and to take away your tunic, let him have your coat also. whoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and you shall not turn away from him who would borrow from you.
From the introduction and context of the preceding amplifications, it would seem quite odd for Jesus to contradict Himself and actually do what He had just warned against doing. I give Him at least the same benefit of the doubt I would any speaker or writer and investigate the details before assuming the worst. When one does investigate the details I think the conclusion is that Moses commanded a limit on recompense not a minimum. But let�s say I am wrong. Let�s say that Jesus was repealing this Law, as He replaced it with a higher standard of Grace. Ultimately that is what He preached � That we humans can�t attain to the Law in principal or outward show. Would such a change amount to destroying the Law or perfecting the Law? If it is the former, the Old Testament has more explaining to do than the New Testament. For God in the Old Testament allowed David to live after he had killed Uriah and committed adultery with his wife. He instructed the prophet Hosea to marry a harlot or a woman who became a harlot and not put her to death � in order that God dramatize the sin of the Jewish nation. These and other examples lead me to conclude that God�s Grace fulfills/completes/perfects the Law of God without destroying it. (From Serv): Please allow me to put it in practical, logical rather than theological, but still hypothetical terms. Forget all else and accept, for now, that there are two primary laws, or statements of law, on the books, one by Moses and the other by Jesus:
(Moses) (Jesus) I am the aggrieved party (plaintiff) standing before you, the sole judge, jury and, if necessary, executioner. The defendant has, hours before, in a fit of fury and for no legitimate reason, punched me in the face and knocked out one of my teeth. How do you judge the case and dispense justice according to both Moses and Jesus (using these and related verses) and what, in the end, becomes of the defendant? What, if any, punishment is meted to the perpetrator of the crime? Answering that might provide a workable synthesis. Serv �
You ask a good question but I think the stage is missing some elements. Actually Jesus described a similar setting in some of His parables and stories and He made you both the judge and plaintiff. He then added a Supreme Judge over you and described a situation where your decision toward the one who has harmed you will be used as the measurement for how you will be treated. If you demand justice, justice will be demanded of you. If you give forgiveness and grace, these will be given to you. As long as you see only look at the horizontal plane, you might imagine yourself as a plaintiff. When/if you can see yourself in the vertical plane, you will see that God is the plaintiff and we need grace not justice. Apollos |
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Sign*Reader
Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
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Hello Serv: You may not get a straight answer from out friend Apollos
I would like to offer the synthesis the LAW of RETALIATION AND EQUALITY: 42:40 (Y. Ali) The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah. for ((Allah)) loveth not those who do wrong. Here Allah has given the rights to the plaintiff with justice and grace back to back unambiguously! As a matter fact no injustice be let go unresolved for the sake of physical well being of the society in general and spiritual health in particular! The current economic abyss is good example between these two schools of thought of man made laws and lawlessness.......... 17:33 (Y. Ali) Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand recompense or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).
Edited by Sign*Reader - 17 March 2009 at 3:16pm |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Servetus
Senior Member Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109 |
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Apollos wrote: �You [Servetus] ask a good question but I think the stage is missing some elements.� Yes. It was probably scrubbed too bare. Apollos wrote: �Actually Jesus described a similar setting in some of His parables and stories and He made you both the judge and plaintiff. He then added a Supreme Judge over you and described a situation where your decision toward the one who has harmed you will be used as the measurement for how you will be treated. If you demand justice, justice will be demanded of you. If you give forgiveness and grace, these will be given to you. As long as you see only look at the horizontal plane, you might imagine yourself as a plaintiff. When/if you can see yourself in the vertical plane you will see that God is the plaintiff and we need grace not justice. Bravo, Apollos! That is a fine and insightful synthesis. Thank you. Sign-Reader wrote: �I would like to offer the synthesis the LAW of RETALIATION AND EQUALITY: Well said (quoted)! Your timing is also excellent. The thing that, from the beginning, was up my sleeve (but which may now seem at best anticlimactic when put on the table ) was exactly this and I was about to ask Muslims for their input, to see if they could produce a synthesis (as you have). I had never really seen, or read, a synthesis between Moses and Jesus, at least not as seamlessly as Apollos clearly has, until I read this, from the Quran, and I thought, wrongly it turns out, that I could offer it as something in the nature of a proof: �We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.� (Quran 5:45) Oh well. I thank everyone in this thread for contributing to my understanding and I do furthermore apologize if I took us on an unnecessary tangent. Serv |
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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Serv, A rather enlightening tangent.
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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abuayisha
Senior Member Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Servetus rarely, if ever, disappoints.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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As I said in that other topic (http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14279&PID=123439#123439), the prophecies are weak to the point of meaninglessness. As for the resurrection, if Jesus was seen up and walking around after the crucifiction, my first assumption would be the same as for anyone else -- that he didn't die. But it's not unusual for eyewitnesses to be mistaken, especially if they claim to see what they fervently want to see. How many eyewitnesses are there who would claim that Elvis is still alive?
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Nur_Ilahi
Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1031 |
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I am not trying to be offensive Apollos. I am just being factual. I am not denying that Jesus was from God (as also you and me), but just that if you compare Jesus and Muhammad, as a human being (of course they are human beings) you cannot find a better man than Muhammad that ever lived.
Take for example in these days you need original, authentic identification wherever you go. You need a birth ceritifcate that shows that you are the son of so and so, you need a driving licence that says you had passed your driving test, you need your ceritificates for whatever courses that you had passed, be it a Degree, a Master, a PhD. In other words, the authentic and original solid proofs.
The proof that we Muslims can bring forward is the Quran. Nothing else. This is the miracle of Muhammad given by God AlMighty that transcend the past, the present and the future. Original, Authentic, without contradiction or anyone's tampering.
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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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But how do you know it came from God? Just hypothetically, if it came from Satan instead, how would you know the difference?
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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