IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Politics > Current Events
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Free Iraq  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Free Iraq

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 10>
Author
Message
b95000 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 11 July 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1328
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2005 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

Bruce, thare are people in our world who are not bound by their feelings for a country. Is it possible for someone to hold global human concern and be motivated only by what's right and what's wrong for any soul anywhere in our little world?


B: Interesting thoughts.  Yes, we should be motivated by some things higher than our affection for our nation/people/tribe, I agree with that (though a 'stupid' American.)   I am also, like you I'm surmising, not bound by feelings about a specific country; in my case about the USA.


Edited by b95000
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Back to Top
Whisper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2005 at 2:04pm

You keep talking about prior to "liberation" Afghanistan. A society is not a computer that we can pick it up and upgrade it just like that in a few days. If "elections" acted like some magic wand to change lives and countries like that then every country will be holding one every week for the fastest effect.

You wish to now how Afghanistan has changed after the "liberation"? I believe Sidney Blumenthal is quite a prominent American. Not some Imam.

Democracy was only an afterthought
The situation in Afghanistan is one of barely managed chaos
Sidney Blumenthal
Thursday July 21, 2005
The Guardian

On the day of the London bombings, President Bush proclaimed: "The war on terror goes on." Through the 2004 campaign, his winning theme was terror. He achieved the logic of a unified field theory connecting Iraq to Afghanistan by threading terror through both, despite the absence of evidence. He insisted that if we didn't fight the terrorists there, we would be fighting them at home. In January, the CIA's thinktank, the National Intelligence Council, issued a report describing Iraq as the magnet and training and recruiting ground for terrorism. The false rationale for the invasion had become a self-fulfilling prophecy. With his popularity flagging, Bush returned to the formulations that succeeded in his campaign.

In Bush's "global war on terror" (Gwot), Iraq and Afghanistan present one extended battlefield against a common enemy - and the strategy is and must be the same. So far as Bush is concerned, it's always either the day after 9/11 or the day before the Iraq invasion. Time stands still at two ideal political moments. But his consequences since are barely managed chaos.

"I was horrified by the president's last speech [on the war on terror], so much unsaid, so much disingenuous, so many half truths," said James Dobbins, Bush's first envoy to Afghanistan, now director of international programmes at the Rand Corporation. Afghanistan is now the scene of a Taliban revival, chronic Pashtun violence, dominance by US-supported warlords who have become narco-lords, and a human rights black hole.

From the start, he said, the effort in Afghanistan was "grossly underfunded and undermanned". The military doctrine was the first error. "The US focus on force protection and substitution of firepower for manpower creates significant collateral damage." But the faith in firepower sustained the illusion that the mission could be "quicker, cheaper, easier". And that justification fitted with Afghanistan being relegated into a sideshow to Iraq.

According to Dobbins, there was also "a generally negative appreciation of peacekeeping and nation building as components of US policy, a disinclination to learn anything from ... Bosnia and Kosovo".

Lack of accountability began at the top and filtered down. On the day of President Hamid Karzai's inauguration in Afghanistan, in December 2001, Dobbins met General Tommy Franks, the Centcom commander, at the airport. As they drove to the ceremony, Dobbins informed Franks of press reports that US planes had mistakenly bombed a delegation of tribal leaders and killed perhaps several dozen. "It was the first time he heard about it. When he got out of the car, reporters asked him about it. He denied it happened. And he denied it happened for several days. It was classic deny first, investigate later. It turned out to be true. It was a normal reflex."

Democracy was an afterthought for the White House, which believed it had little application to Afghans. At the Bonn conference establishing international legitimacy for the Kabul government, "the word 'democracy' was introduced at the insistence of the Iranian delegation", Dobbins points out.

However, democracy - now the overriding rationale for the Gwot - does not include support for human rights. "In terms of the human rights situation in Afghanistan, Karzai is well meaning and moderate and thoroughly honourable," said Dobbins, "but he's overwhelmed."

Donald Rumsfeld's Pentagon and the White House removed restraints on torture. "These were command failures, not just isolated incidents ... You didn't have the checks and balances. They've had consequences in terms of public image." In April, the US succeeded in abolishing the office of the UN rapporteur on human rights for Afghanistan.

Dobbins believes that the operation in Afghanistan has improved, but that the administration "hasn't readily acknowledged its mistakes, and corrected them only after losing a good deal of ground, irrecoverable ground ... most of the violence is not al-Qaida type, but Pashtun sectarian violence. It's not international terrorism."

Facts on the ground cannot alter Bush's stentorian summons to the Gwot. "This is a campaign conducted primarily, and should be, by law enforcement, diplomatic and intelligence means," Dobbins said. "The militarisation of the concept is a theme that mobilises the American public effectively, but it's not a theme that resonates well in the Middle East or with our allies elsewhere in the world."

"We're taking the fight to the terrorists abroad, so we don't have to face them here at home," Bush declared in June - and repeated endlessly - finally appearing vindicated with the London attacks. London, like Iraq and Afghanistan, is "there", not "here".

Sidney Blumenthal, a former senior adviser to President Clinton, is author of The Clinton Wars

Back to Top
b95000 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 11 July 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1328
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2005 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

You keep talking about prior to "liberation" Afghanistan.



You bet I do.  They were liberated from this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1410061.stm
and from Osama Bin Laden's frenzied mass murdering treachery.
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Back to Top
b95000 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 11 July 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1328
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2005 at 5:05pm
I disagree with Blumenthals argument that terror is not connected in the Afghanistan and Iraq liberations and in the ME generally.  It is clearly a very huge issue that has claimed thousands of lives - even within a single hour.  Such heinous barbarism demands strong responses.  That said the War on Terror/War for Freedom is not just a military battle.  It is even moreso a battle for hearts and minds.  That is why the millions that voted in Afghanistan and Iraq are not just some principle to be kicked to the curb as Sasha does by mocking their effect.  No, voting and democracy are a slow and a quick revolution...a reflection of a greater march toward freedom within the human heart and soul that has its source in time immemorial..You will see democracy and voting have it's great effect if you are patient enough...and one of the key indicators will be decreasing violence throughout the countries in question and throughout the region.

It is a FACT, that democracies do not attack other democracies.  And that is more than just a 'magic wand' to be regarded blithely.
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Back to Top
Whisper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2005 at 3:06pm

I share your sadness, Bruce.

You have nothing to say to us that we have not already heard from the US admin itself.

 

You hold not a single point with you.

You are here just to score some. Good luck, It�s a good way to go through the type of loneliness the industrialised society breeds.

Back to Top
Whisper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2005 at 7:24am

Just posting this for a general read. I need NOT even mention that Prof. J. K Galbraith is definitely more credible than some jugglesrs who have been trying to sell us slaughter and occupation as some "liberation".

Just read and enjoy!

A cloud over civilisation
Corporate power is the driving force behind US foreign policy - and the slaughter in Iraq
JK Galbraith
Thursday July 15, 2004
The Guardian

At the end of the second world war, I was the director for overall effects of the United States strategic bombing survey - Usbus, as it was known. I led a large professional economic staff in assessment of the industrial and military effects of the bombing of Germany. The strategic bombing of German industry, transportation and cities, was gravely disappointing. Attacks on factories that made such seemingly crucial components as ball bearings, and even attacks on aircraft plants, were sadly useless. With plant and machinery relocation and more determined management, fighter aircraft production actually increased in early 1944 after major bombing. In the cities, the random cruelty and death inflicted from the sky had no appreciable effect on war production or the war.

These findings were vigorously resisted by the Allied armed services - especially, needless to say, the air command, even though they were the work of the most capable scholars and were supported by German industry officials and impeccable German statistics, as well as by the director of German arms production, Albert Speer. All our conclusions were cast aside. The air command's public and academic allies united to arrest my appointment to a Harvard professorship and succeeded in doing so for a year.

Nor is this all. The greatest military misadventure in American history until Iraq was the war in Vietnam. When I was sent there on a fact-finding mission in the early 60s, I had a full view of the military dominance of foreign policy, a dominance that has now extended to the replacement of the presumed civilian authority. In India, where I was ambassador, in Washington, where I had access to President Kennedy, and in Saigon, I developed a strongly negative view of the conflict. Later, I encouraged the anti-war campaign of Eugene McCarthy in 1968. His candidacy was first announced in our house in Cambridge.

At this time the military establishment in Washington was in support of the war. Indeed, it was taken for granted that both the armed services and the weapons industries should accept and endorse hostilities - Dwight Eisenhower's "military-industrial complex".

In 2003, close to half the total US government discretionary expenditure was used for military purposes. A large part was for weapons procurement or development. Nuclear-powered submarines run to billions of dollars, individual planes to tens of millions each.

Such expenditure is not the result of detached analysis. From the relevant industrial firms come proposed designs for new weapons, and to them are awarded production and profit. In an impressive flow of influence and command, the weapons industry accords valued employment, management pay and profit in its political constituency, and indirectly it is a treasured source of political funds. The gratitude and the promise of political help go to Washington and to the defence budget. And to foreign policy or, as in Vietnam and Iraq, to war. That the private sector moves to a dominant public-sector role is apparent.

None will doubt that the modern corporation is a dominant force in the present-day economy. Once in the US there were capitalists. Steel by Carnegie, oil by Rockefeller, tobacco by Duke, railroads variously and often incompetently controlled by the moneyed few. In its market position and political influence, modern corporate management, unlike the capitalist, has public acceptance. A dominant role in the military establishment, in public finance and the environment is assumed. Other public authority is also taken for granted. Adverse social flaws and their effect do, however, require attention.

One, as just observed, is the way the corporate power has shaped the public purpose to its own needs. It ordains that social success is more automobiles, more television sets, a greater volume of all other consumer goods - and more lethal weaponry. Negative social effects - pollution, destruction of the landscape, the unprotected health of the citizenry, the threat of military action and death - do not count as such.

The corporate appropriation of public initiative and authority is unpleasantly visible in its effect on the environment, and dangerous as regards military and foreign policy. Wars are a major threat to civilised existence, and a corporate commitment to weapons procurement and use nurtures this threat. It accords legitimacy, and even heroic virtue, to devastation and death.

Power in the modern great corporation belongs to the management. The board of directors is an amiable entity, meeting with self-approval but fully subordinate to the real power of the managers. The relationship resembles that of an honorary degree recipient to a member of a university faculty.

The myths of investor authority, the ritual meetings of directors and the annual stockholder meeting persist, but no mentally viable observer of the modern corporation can escape the reality. Corporate power lies with management - a bureaucracy in control of its task and its compensation. Rewards can verge on larceny. On frequent recent occasions, it has been referred to as the corporate scandal.

As the corporate interest moves to power in what was the public sector, it serves the corporate interest. It is most clearly evident in the largest such movement, that of nominally private firms into the defence establishment. From this comes a primary influence on the military budget, on foreign policy, military commitment and, ultimately, military action. War. Although this is a normal and expected use of money and its power, the full effect is disguised by almost all conventional expression.

Given its authority in the modern corporation it was natural that management would extend its role to politics and to government. Once there was the public reach of capitalism; now it is that of corporate management. In the US, corporate managers are in close alliance with the president, the vice-president and the secretary of defence. Major corporate figures are also in senior positions elsewhere in the federal government; one came from the bankrupt and thieving Enron to preside over the army.

Defence and weapons development are motivating forces in foreign policy. For some years, there has also been recognised corporate control of the Treasury. And of environmental policy.

We cherish the progress in civilisation since biblical times and long before. But there is a needed and, indeed, accepted qualification. The US and Britain are in the bitter aftermath of a war in Iraq. We are accepting programmed death for the young and random slaughter for men and women of all ages. So it was in the first and second world wars, and is still so in Iraq. Civilised life, as it is called, is a great white tower celebrating human achievements, but at the top there is permanently a large black cloud. Human progress dominated by unimaginable cruelty and death.

Civilisation has made great strides over the centuries in science, healthcare, the arts and most, if not all, economic well-being. But it has also given a privileged position to the development of weapons and the threat and reality of war. Mass slaughter has become the ultimate civilised achievement.

The facts of war are inescapable - death and random cruelty, suspension of civilised values, a disordered aftermath. Thus the human condition and prospect as now supremely evident. The economic and social problems here described can, with thought and action, be addressed. So they have already been. War remains the decisive human failure.

This is an edited extract from The Economics of Innocent Fraud: Truth for Our Time, by JK Galbraith, published by Allen Lane.

Back to Top
b95000 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 11 July 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1328
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2005 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

I share your sadness, Bruce.

You have nothing to say to us that we have not already heard from the US admin itself.

 

You hold not a single point with you.

You are here just to score some. Good luck, It�s a good way to go through the type of loneliness the industrialised society breeds.



B: What?  This is just ludicrous...you have no idea what you're talking about in this case Sasha...this post is laughable...all the more because you have really no idea who I am...Funny; I'm laughing out loud man..btw: None of what you post here about me is true..
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Back to Top
Whisper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2005 at 11:28am

B: What?  This is just ludicrous...you have no idea what you're talking about in this case Sasha...this post is laughable...all the more because you have really no idea who I am...Funny; I'm laughing out loud man..btw: None of what you post here about me is true..

What am I posting about you, Bruce? I am just saying that you hold no points of your own but just keep repeating the official US spins, which we have heard just a bit too often.

That�s all what I have said.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 10>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.