Burden of Proof

Posted by Nur_Ilahi:

The proof that we Muslims can bring forward is the Quran. Nothing else. This is the miracle of Muhammad given by God AlMighty that transcend the past, the present and the future. Original, Authentic, without contradiction or anyone's tampering.

From Apollos:

In what way is the Quran objectively different than any other human writing? The qualities you mention are subjective criteria and can be found in Shakespear, Dr. Seus or the New York times. 

Posted by Nur_Ilahi:

Apollos wrote: For the sake of brevity I am willing to limit the historical facts to the 12 core ones I mentioned but if you reject even this minimal historical scholarship, I don�t think we have much to discuss on what is historical about Jesus. All scholars agree that Jesus was crucified and died.

Well, not the Muslim scholars for sure.  But I'm getting the feeling that only Christian theologians qualify as "scholars" for you.

Many years ago I heard a radio program that discussed the hypothesis that Jesus didn't actually die during the crucifixion.  They mentioned that dentists are taught about a phenomenon they call an "upright faint".  Normally if you faint, you fall down, blood rushes to your head and you revive more or less automatically.  When you are held upright (e.g. in a dentist's chair, or nailed to a cross), this doesn't happen, and you can lapse into a deeply unconscious state which may be mistaken for death.  It's always seemed like the most logical explanation to me.

I went searching for that information on the Internet, and didn't find it; but instead I found a BBC documentary program called "Did Jesus Die?"  There is a Web page for it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/did-jesus-die.shtml, and if your bandwidth can handle a 670 MB download (mine can't, unfortunately) I think you can watch it or download it here: http://docuwiki.net/index.php?title=Did_Jesus_Die .  Here's a piece of the interview with the director, Richard Denton:

BBC Four: How do you think he might have survived crucifixion? RD: Crucifixion took up to three days; the maximum he was on the cross for was nine hours, it might even have been six. And even if you read the gospels Pontius Pilate is clearly surprised that he's already dead and wants to be reassured by the centurion that he really is dead. My personal take on it would be that he goes into a shock induced coma, and probably they thought he was dead. ... BBC Four: What actually prompted you to start exploring this topic? RD: I was intrigued because most academic theologians and intelligent churchmen, or a very significant number of them, do not believe that the resurrection is the literal truth. It's a metaphor to tell us that there is hope. Whilst not saying that it's a literal truth they don't actually say it's a lie, but if you're saying something's not literal truth then you are saying it's a lie. I was shocked that none of the people we interviewed, with the exception of the Cannon of Westminster, believed it was true. Yet if they don't think it's true what on earth do they think is the motivation behind writing the story in the Bible?

Apollos wrote: Ron - In answering your questions I am trying to appeal to some common ground as a starting place but I don�t know what that might be. Are you an atheist? An agnostic? A Mormon? Please clarify so I can understand your reference point

First and foremost I call myself a freethinker.  I also consider myself an atheist, but I stay away from that term because too often it leads to tedious arguments about how I can "prove" that God doesn't exist.  (As if Christians etc. can't call themselves that unless they can "prove" that He does.)

P.P.S.: I also need to correct a spelling error: "crucifixion", not "crucifiction".  I'm normally very good with spelling.  Must have been a Freudian slip.