Burden of Proof

Ron Webb wrote: Apollos wrote: For the sake of brevity I am willing to limit the historical facts to the 12 core ones I mentioned but if you reject even this minimal historical scholarship, I don�t think we have much to discuss on what is historical about Jesus. All scholars agree that Jesus was crucified and died. FROM Ron Webb: Well, not the Muslim scholars for sure.  But I'm getting the feeling that only Christian theologians qualify as "scholars" for you.   From Apollos: Ron - No I am not referring to Christian Theologians as scholars. "Critical Scholarship" is essentially secular usually atheistic scholarship. I could quote you the names of the most preeminent ones but I gather you are not really studied in this area. If you want to get up to up speed, I suggest you find a transcript from one of the debates on this subject with Antony Flew (the leading philosophical atheist until just recently). He acknowledges the scholars and conclusions I have summarized. To ignore serious scholars and history and debate naive theories like the one you refer to is a waste of both our time.

Shasta'sAunt wrote: Ron Webb wrote: Shasta'sAunt wrote: What does The Quran instruct us to do that could be considered Satanic? I was asking hypothetically, not suggesting that it actually was Satanic.  But since you asked: in my opinion only an evil god, or possibly Satan, could recommend or even permit that we should cut off the hands of somebody who steals a donut.  We've had this discussion before, so I don't want to go there again; and anyway, nothing anyone can say could change my opinion on that.  If God Himself appeared before me and told me that, I'd tell him (as I believe Muhammad should have) that he is a liar and an impostor.  There is no way I could worship such a god.   Yes, we have had this discussion before but even a secular humanist must know that if you have within a society someone who continually flaunts the laws of that society with no regard for their fellow humans then some sort of punishment must be meted out. Otherwise chaos and anarchy will follow.   You know from our previous discussion that stealing a donut would not automatically result in your hand being cut off. Career criminals need a deterrent.   Look at the economic mess we are in right now because people are allowed to steal in this country with impunity. I'm pretty darn sure if the court system lopped off Bernie Madoff's or the CEO of Fannie Mae's right hand the next person with a ripoff scheme would think long and hard before going through with it and little old ladies in Florida wouldn't be sitting around wondering how they are going to survive now that all of their nest egg has been stolen. Or families in Pennsylvania or Detroit or Wisconsin wouldn't be homeless and unemployed wondering where they will sleep or how they will feed their children.

Not just them but also the recipients of presidential & congressional campaign contributions in who were party to the sub prime... MBSs and AIG derivatives!
And I wonder about our teleprompter lefty prez's billion dollar campaign chest

Ron, you need to find a better example than the donut!


Edited by Sign*Reader - 20 March 2009 at 12:23pm

Shasta'sAunt wrote: Yes, we have had this discussion before but even a secular humanist must know that if you have within a society someone who continually flaunts the laws of that society with no regard for their fellow humans then some sort of punishment must be meted out. Otherwise chaos and anarchy will follow.   You know from our previous discussion that stealing a donut would not automatically result in your hand being cut off. Career criminals need a deterrent.

 
The Quran does not say "some sort of punishment must be meted out.".  It does not say "career criminals need a deterrent."  And it doesn't say "the donut example doesn't fly."  It gives a clear, unequivocal and direct command to Muslims: "As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands."
 
Yes, I know that stealing a donut would not automatically result in the thief's hand being cut off.  I know that because I have faith in humanity, not God, and I know that no civilized society would tolerate such inhumanity, regardless of what their holy book says.  I just find it appalling that Allah apparently would tolerate it, let alone command it.
 
And yes, I know that the Quran goes on to say that if the thief repents and makes amends, Allah will forgive him; but it doesn't say that Muslims can or should forgive him, and it doesn't revoke the punishment.  How could it?  How do you restore a severed hand?
 
At the very least, this sort of ugliness does not belong in a scripture whose only claim to authenticity is its alleged great beauty.

Edited by Ron Webb - 20 March 2009 at 4:43pm

Ron Webb wrote: Apollos wrote: Ron - No I am not referring to Christian Theologians as scholars. "Critical Scholarship" is essentially secular usually atheistic scholarship. I could quote you the names of the most preeminent ones but I gather you are not really studied in this area. If you want to get up to up speed, I suggest you find a transcript from one of the debates on this subject with Antony Flew (the leading philosophical atheist until just recently). He acknowledges the scholars and conclusions I have summarized. To ignore serious scholars and history and debate naive theories like the one you refer to is a waste of both our time.    Well, we agree on one thing: this is a waste of time.  But why do ideologues always have to end with an argumentum ad hominem?