Trinity

Apple Pie wrote: Greetings Yusuf, "wa" in Arabic has numerous meanings; it does not simply mean "and" in every circumstance. You should learn the language before you attempt to interpret subtleties of meaning. Bring forth your references...

Penrice, John. A Dictionary and Glossary of the Kor-an with Copious Grammatical References and Explanations of the Text. London: Henry S. King & Co., 1873: p. 156.

Thackston, W. M. An Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic. Bethesda: IBEX Publishers, 1994. Various meanings of "wa" are discussed in different chapters of the text.

Although frankly references are not necessary since any Arabic speaker knows these simple semantic rules.

Apple Pie wrote: Greetings All,   There seems to be a great deal of confusion regarding Islam�s understanding of their very own book of faith regarding the Biblical concept of the Trinity. Let�s review what 4.171 tells us�   �    You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, �        �wa� and do not say on Allah except the truth, �        but the Messiah, Jesus, �        Mary's son �        Allah's messenger �        �wa� and His Word �        He threw it away to Mary, �        �wa� a Soul/Spirit from Him; �        �fa� so believe with Allah, �        �wa� and His messengers, �        �wa� and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you, �        but Allah (is) one Allah, �        �yakoona� verily he shall be a child for Him �        what (is) in the skies/space �        �wa� and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with Allah (as a) guardian/protector. It is clear from the text that Jesus is both Mary�s and (in this case) �allah�s� son. Same theme copied from the Holy Bible. Observe that Jesus is not merely �allah�s  messenger; but he is also �wa� his Word. Same theme copied from the Holy Bible. Furthermore, the �allah� of the Koran is shown to have a Spirit which is also imputed into Jesus. Same theme copied from the Holy Bible. Thus�.we have just witnessed three elements of �allah�. Now...look what is stated next� �do not say: "Three." Why should we not say that �allah� is three when we were just told of three elements that pertain to him�.? Here�s why� Because� �Allah (is) one Allah� What a novel idea. Sound familiar�.? It should, as it is lifted right out of the Holy Bible. Furthermore�look at what the text states after this� �verily he shall be a child for Him� Rock-solid Biblical confirmation that Jesus is God's son!!! I have to ask; can it really get much clearer than this for the die-hard Muslim�.?! Straight from their very own book of faith� No more excuses...

My dear bro Apple Pie, without arguing into your distorted translation of the verse, let us concentrate on the message in the verse, if we are sincere in considering it the truth from Allah.

First of all, even with your own distorted meaning, the message in this verse of Quran is clearly addressing the people of the book and more specifically to my Christian brothers i.e. you (I think). Hence, the opening sentence says "do not exceed the limits" and you very well know what limits you have exceeded; if not, the rest of the verse clarifies it to you.

Then, according to your translation "and do not say on Allah except the truth" . So what is it that you (the Christians)  say about Allah (God) other than the truth? Of course about His entity in Trinity. Isn't it? Let us proceed as what Allah (God) tell you about this concept in this verse. Here Allah (God) says from your own distorted translation "�wa� and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you, but Allah (is) one Allah".

Hence, my dear brother, this is the core, unambigous, and clear message for you (my Christian brothers). Do you accept this? The decision is upto you as what you now believe or reject as on the day of Judgement Allah (God) shall make it clear for everyone of us about this matter. So why to bother about it. Let us agree on as what is clear in this verse and leave the things which are ambiguous to you. For us, this is not the only verse in Quran where oneness of Allah is described, for example in the follow chapter

"

112.001
YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
PICKTHAL: Say: He is Allah, the One!
SHAKIR: Say: He, Allah, is One.

112.002
YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
PICKTHAL: Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
SHAKIR: Allah is He on Whom all depend.

112.003
YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
PICKTHAL: He begetteth not nor was begotten.
SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten.

112.004
YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
PICKTHAL: And there is none comparable unto Him.
SHAKIR: And none is like Him. "

So, my dear brother, is there any more ambiguity left that indeed Trinity is not divine nature of God, but God is only One. On the more, even this very word "Triune" or "Trinity" doesn't exist in whole of the Bible but a later distorted human explanations of the scriptures you have.

Greetigns AhmadJoyia,

Thanks for your reply�

My dear bro Apple Pie, without arguing into your distorted translation of the verse, let us concentrate on the message in the verse, if we are sincere in considering it the truth from Allah.

If you feel that I have �distorted� the meaning of this ayah, then feel completely free to exegete the Arabic in which it was penned�instead of relying upon Islam to dictate its meaning to you�

First of all, even with your own distorted meaning, the message in this verse of Quran is clearly addressing the people of the book and more specifically to my Christian brothers i.e. you (I think). Hence, the opening sentence says "do not exceed the limits" and you very well know what limits you have exceeded; if not, the rest of the verse clarifies it to you.

Please show us the Arabic of this ayah�.so that we can see who has the best comprehension of its content�.thanks�

Then, according to your translation "and do not say on Allah except the truth" . So what is it that you (the Christians)  say about Allah (God) other than the truth? Of course about His entity in Trinity. Isn't it?

The authors of the Koran quite clearly denounce (in sura 5) the �Triune� nature consisting of:

�         �Allah�

�         Jesus

�         Mary

4.171 informs us that the �Triune� nature should be:

�         �Allah�

�         Spirit

�         Jesus i.e. Son; i.e. Word

I think that you can easily see this for yourself, even by reading the �popular� English translations�

Let us proceed as what Allah (God) tell you about this concept in this verse. Here Allah (God) says from your own distorted translation "�wa� and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you,         but Allah (is) one Allah".

Interesting that you totally and completely SKIPPED right on over �allah�s� triune attributes as if they were not even there�interesting indeed�!

And so�you decided to settle on �allah� is one.

Well�please tell us exactly how this is ANY different than what the Holy Bible tells us�?

We will be anxiously awaiting your reply�

Hence, my dear brother, this is the core, unambigous, and clear message for you (my Christian brothers). Do you accept this?

Accept what�.?

That the Creator God of the Holy Bible is Uniplural in nature�?

That the authors of the Koran have also copied this very same theme over into your book of faith�?

The decision is upto you as what you now believe or reject as on the day of Judgement Allah (God) shall make it clear for everyone of us about this matter.

I think that you need to study your book of faith a little closer than what Islam has led you to believe�

So why to bother about it. Let us agree on as what is clear in this verse and leave the things which are ambiguous to you.

What is not clear to you in 4.171�?

For us, this is not the only verse in Quran where oneness of Allah is described, for example in the follow chapter

"

112.001
YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
PICKTHAL: Say: He is Allah, the One!
SHAKIR: Say: He, Allah, is One.

112.002
YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
PICKTHAL: Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
SHAKIR: Allah is He on Whom all depend.

112.003
YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
PICKTHAL: He begetteth not nor was begotten.
SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten.

112.004
YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
PICKTHAL: And there is none comparable unto Him.
SHAKIR: And none is like Him. "

And�.?

How is this any different that what the Holy Bible teaches�.?

So, my dear brother, is there any more ambiguity left that indeed Trinity is not divine nature of God, but God is only One.

Your very own book of faith clearly shows a Uniplural entity�.same as the Holy Bible�

Perhaps its time that you comprehend this for yourself�

On the more, even this very word "Triune" or "Trinity" doesn't exist in whole of the Bible but a later distorted human explanations of the scriptures you have.

Fact of the matter is, the word �trinity� does not appear in the Holy Bible NOR the Koran.

Hence, since it does NOT appear in the Koran, you really have no scriptural authority to denounce the concept�

Thanks�

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Thanks for your reply�

 Kindly quote the authority/reference to your translation where you think it to be more correct than what you say "relying on Islam to dictate".

Sure thing�

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Kindly confirm whether you agree or disagree and then ask for reference for authenticity.

You stated that I �distorted� the meaning of this ayah�thus; it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate precisely where this occurred.

You are evading your duty�

BTW, the reference for the italicized bolded and underlined text is your own translation and none other.

Again�show us the Arabic�

Unless, as we can plainly see for ourselves, you don�t understand the mother-tongue in which you are entrusting your eternal soul towards�

So do you think, this is the only form of Trinity being denounced?

Show us the word �trinity� in the Koran�

So you mean only those Christians who believe in this form of Trinity are wrong? Hmm!!!

What does your book of faith state�?

So what about the other forms of Trinities? I think there are several of them and all depends upon to whom (Christian) you ask to?

Other �forms� of trinities�.?

Oh, I see. So this is your preferred form of Trinity my brother that you think is correct.

This is the �form� listed in 4.171�

Why deny�

So why not go and tell your own brothers who believe in the other forms of Trinity that they are totally wrong as the Allah of Muslims also testifies it. 

Again�what �forms� do the authors of the Koran mention�.?

 Wow!! What a manneover to link up the two verses to extract your own meanings.

Do you evaluate ayahs in your book of faith in isolation from each other�.?

Well, my dear brother, are you reading the same passage of Quran (4:171) that you have posted above to extract this meaning {�Triune� nature should be...."}. This is totally a illogical explanation of the meanings. So you mean to say that Allah (or as you say authors of Quran) mean to negate one form of Trinity and to replace it with yet another form of it in this verse 4:171.

Does this surprise you�.?

This is indeed an extrapolational explanation to suit your own purpose.

Again�.instead of dancing endlessly around the issue at hand�.why not (if you disagree) come forward with your understanding of the Arabic of this ayah�

You are stalling�

This is especially true when in the same very verse, with your own distorted translation, we read ""�wa� and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you,   but Allah (is) one Allah"." 

Again�.why are you completely SKIPPING over what precedes this:

�       �wa� and his Word

�       �wa� and a Spirit

Don�t turn away from your scriptures�

Well my brother I have not skipped any of the attributes of Allah mentioned before this part of the verse. Your allegation is found baseless and lacks evidence.

You just did it again�.why are you completely SKIPPING over what precedes this:

�       �wa� and his Word

�       �wa� and a Spirit

Don�t turn away from your scriptures�

On the more, Prophet Isa is named as "ibn Mariam" and not "ibn allah" in this verse, so which attributes are you taking about? No evidence and of course without logic.

Perhaps you can define  �yakoona� for us�.

We will be waiting�  

Well, it would be more interesting if you bring logic to your arguements instead of repeating my understanding, only if you have one.

So�.now your own scriptures lack logic�?

Holy Bible???

Yes�.Holy Bible�

Which Bible or which part of Bible you think is Holy and how?

Since the Koran is 99% re-translated Biblical Hebrew and Greek, you tell us�

This is indeed, yet another interesting story that you may not like to hear from me. So go and refer this question to your Christian scholars. Please don't take me wrong when I say this as I have great respect for your scripture whatever you consider it since it(NT) does contain some original teachings of Jesus. However, teachings of Jesus in the gospels is one thing and its extrapolational philosopy based upon St. Paul's teachings is yet another. Hopefully you know the difference between the two.

You seem doubtful regarding the authenticity of the Holy Bible�

Thus, I pose to you to pick ANY portion of the Koran that you feel is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence.

If you decline, then your argument is completely one from silence�

Accept as what is being asked in this verse to you. Shall I repeat your own translation; again? To summarize, from your own translation that, Jesus was,

without going into exaggeration in your religion,

• a son of Mariam
• a messanger of Allah
• a word from Allah
• a spirit sent by Allah

Awesome�

I thought that �allah� was one�?

Now you are telling us that he is Spirit?

Now you are telling us that he is Word?

I really don't understand this term "Uniplural"? Is this a new definition my brother has invented to justify the apparant mismatch in his understanding of God?

Uni = one

Plural = more than one

Put them together, and you have an epithet that describes the Creator God of the holy Bible which was subsequently copied over to the god of the Koran�

The author of Quran is none but Allah Himself.

First of all, it is authors (plural).

Secondly, the Arabic of your book of faith amply describes Jesus as God Almighty.

Since you follow only the �popular� English translations; you are totally unaware of this�

The same God to whom Prophet Jesus also used to pray.

Jesus prayed to Himself�?

"ambigous to you" means "not clear to you" as opposed to asking me. BTW, I have already presented the clear view about Prophet Isa and see what is not obvious to you and then we can talk more on it.

When did your �clear view� appear�?

Was it from the �popular� English translations that you are so fond of�.?

Tell us�.was the Koran written in English�?

Probably you haven't paid attention to this part of the verse

"112.003
YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
PICKTHAL: He begetteth not nor was begotten.
SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten. "

otherwise you would not have asked this question.

Jesus was �conceived� of the Holy Spirit�.not �allah��

This is stated both in the Holy Bible and then later copied into the Koran�

You haven't define what is "Uniplural".

Done�

On the more you either have not read the chapter 112 that I have referred it to you or you are not very familiar with your own Bible, otherwise you would not have asked this question. Kindly do let me know if you still don't find the difference between Quranic teachings of Allah and what Christians think of Him.

Done�

 Well, aren't you falsifying your own reference of Quran both in this verse 4:171 and chapter 5 where "Trinity" is denounced?

Again�show us the Arabic word �trinity��

We will be waiting�

Since your basic premise is false, so does to your logic. Isn't it?

You cannot produce the Arabic word for �trinity�.  This is abundantly clear.

Thus�you hold tenaciously to something that is not even mentioned in your book of faith�hence, YOUR premise is completely unfounded�

You are a follower if Islam�instead of the Koran�

For completeness, here is the relevent verse from Chapter 5 (a translation from 3 different people just to make sure translational errors are reduced for our overall understanding):

Great�.more �popular� English translations�forget the Arabic�lol�

Please tell us about �translational errors��.thanks�

005.072
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

005.073
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

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Hopefully, this shall be sufficient for today.

Hopefully�

Certainly, only Allah knows the best.

Allah who..?

Take care�