Burden of Proof

Apollos,

We seem to be running off in tangents here.  You clearly don't understand the theory of evolution (the theory that new species arise via "macro level mutation" is called saltation, not evolution) but we'll save that for another time.  Nor do I want to digress into a debate on the origin of the universe.

I started out by saying that if Jesus was up and walking around after the crucifixion, the most logical explanation would be that he didn't die.  I reject "it's a miracle" as an explanation because (at least by my definition) miracles are inherently illogical, i.e. if there's a logical explanation then it isn't a miracle.

If you want to make a miracle into a logical explanation, then you need to explain (or at least offer a credible theory of) how miracles work.  By what mechanism does God intervene in the world?  For example, is it a quantum effect of some kind?  Perhaps God manipulates the probabilities of particle interactions at the subatomic level?  If so, how does He accomplish this?  What is your evidence that this is happening, and how can we test your theory?

That would be a logical explanation, and I would be thrilled to see the evidence.  But simply saying "it's a miracle" is not an explanation at all -- on the contrary, it is an admission that you have no explanation.

Apollos wrote: I am taking this tangent because I am trying to find a starting point for us to agree on. Since you have said you only accept natural explanations for events and the universe is the only reality that exists, I will never be able to show you satisfactory reasons that don't meet your criteria, correct? I am therefore trying to show that your definitions are subjective and arbitrary so you will consider the possibility that God exists. I am not trying to get you to admit that God exists but allow the possibility that He exists. If you exclude that possibility, no one could ever prove a miracle to you, could they?

If you look back in the discussion you will see that it was you, not me, who introduced the word "universe".  To me, as I said, the "universe" means everything that exists; and if God exists, then He is part of the universe.  If that isn't what you meant by the term, then I wish you would define it; but my definition does not exclude the possibility of God.

Your request for the mechanisms of a miracle to prove it is "logical" is equally subjective and arbitrary. If you applied this criteria to a host of other events they would prove to be "illogical" as well. For example, the love your parents had for you, the truthfulness of your memories, the existence of everything around you. Show me the logical proof of these and I will know how to answer your question.

My parents have helped me in many ways, and their attention and assistance are a logical explanation for the kind of person I am and the good life I live.  I can easily prove that my parents exist, I can prove what they did for me and how they did it, and I can probably even show that those acts of good parenting might logically be expected to produce beneficial results.

The other examples you offer are not explanations of anything, so they are not analogous to miraculous explanations of events.  There is nothing logical or illogical about memories or existence.  Such things may be true or false, but not logical or illogical.